in responce to the driver problem we have

[cbus]

C’mon - Some of you people are completely ignorant! I am a current user of the Sprint Touch and former owner of the xv6600. The xv6600 was enormous and had excellant video playback and was quite fast. I bought that device 4 years ago and now I go out and spend more money for a device that performs worse than technology of 4 years ago and I am supposed to be “OK” with that. Look - nobody cares if your a software developer or whatever, we - the vast majority - are simply unhappy paying good money for poor performance. It is not “OK” to put up with this nonsense and thank God that people are not! HTC should simply do the right thing. Consumers have been so used to getting screwed that comments like some of the above are simply outrageous. Can you imagine if the slaves just sat back and did nothing? I know - I know - but the reality is you wouldn’t be “OK” if you purchased a car that was the same 4 years later and have it go slower and the stereo was intermitant and video playback on the dvd player was screwed up. Consumers - roll your sleeves and don’t stop until we get some resolution!!!!

[atoy74]

Originally Posted by eehrhard

While I would like to have more performance out of my phone as much as anyone I think you have your analogys here backwards.

Being as this is not an advertised feature of the phone. (Most of you knew nothing about it until the HTCClassaction Website popped up or if you follow XDA quite closely) It would be more like You buying a 6 cyl car and the automaker giving you 6 cyl by just not utilizing 2 on its 8 cyl motor and sticking it in your car. Maybe your are mad cause you should have gotten 8 as all the hardware is there but you bought a 6 and got a 6. To have your analogy work you would have to have gotten a mogul without a keyboard or a touch that only had half the stated RAM.

These features should be made available but to feel entitled to them is kind of short sided. I am looking a my mogul box right now and see no info about the ati features.

Complain away to sprint, HTC, AT&T hopefully it will work and we will get even better stuff for our phone but at least realize (with the Mogul and Touch) we got the phone as it was advertized.

Very good point and technically correct. That's one way to look at it.

I feel there's another side to this.

Consumers would/should expect a company's new product would outclass the previous models. These devices are sold that way (new 400MHz processor!, double the previous model's RAM!, smaller form factor! etc) and by that it's implied that they're faster. As the videos have shown, this is not the case.

I am a technical person but it never occurred to me that I should check that this particular feature was enabled. That's a small and very technical detail that most people are not aware of. If folks were aware, I'm sure it would have influenced many sales. Seems like HTC was running on the expectation that folks would not notice.

Look, it's part of the chipset, why shouldn't it be enabled? Consider an engine manufacturer made their engine with a supercharger and most people knew that to be "part of the system." Shouldn't the car manufacturer that is using that engine be clear that they've disabled the supercharger?

(Car manufacturers are a difficult analogy in this case because of the gravity of the purchase. Yes, most of us do a lot of research when purchasing a $25k+ car compared to a $250 phone...still, the arguments are relative)

By HTC promoting that they're using that chipset they were also implying that those features would be available if not explicitly stated where they weren't (available.)

[dew.man]

Originally Posted by atoy74

Look, it's part of the chipset, why shouldn't it be enabled? Consider an engine manufacturer made their engine with a supercharger and most people knew that to be "part of the system." Shouldn't the car manufacturer that is using that engine be clear that they've disabled the supercharger?

It's all about consolidate and cross-platform development. The chipset is an enabler and cost saver.

QualComm puts out a chipset that ALLOWS the customer-manufacturer to offer different features to their end-users. Just because this chipset may have WiFi capabilities, in no way obligates the phone maker to add the other hardware/software (ie antenna) to enable this functionallity.

This same practice has long been done in every other industry.

And for those of you using the car/engine example, would it be fair to say that when you buy a cheap chevy sedan it should perform on par with a vette just because they may use the same block?

And how do you justify the premium of a Rolex?

[eehrhard]

Originally Posted by atoy74

Very good point and technically correct. That's one way to look at it.

I feel there's another side to this.

Consumers would/should expect a company's new product would outclass the previous models. These devices are sold that way (new 400MHz processor!, double the previous model's RAM!, smaller form factor! etc) and by that it's implied that they're faster. As the videos have shown, this is not the case.

I am a technical person but it never occurred to me that I should check that this particular feature was enabled. That's a small and very technical detail that most people are not aware of. If folks were aware, I'm sure it would have influenced many sales. Seems like HTC was running on the expectation that folks would not notice.

Look, it's part of the chipset, why shouldn't it be enabled? Consider an engine manufacturer made their engine with a supercharger and most people knew that to be "part of the system." Shouldn't the car manufacturer that is using that engine be clear that they've disabled the supercharger?

(Car manufacturers are a difficult analogy in this case because of the gravity of the purchase. Yes, most of us do a lot of research when purchasing a $25k+ car compared to a $250 phone...still, the arguments are relative)

By HTC promoting that they're using that chipset they were also implying that those features would be available if not explicitly stated where they weren't (available.)

I agree completely that it should be enabled. I would probably even pay for the driver if it was because of cost that it was not enabled. I am just stating that when you all went to the sprint store if you are anything like me you knew exactly what you were buying. I knew it didnt have GPS, I knew rev A was not out yet. I played with it for 30 days and knew that the video performance was not great. I also agree that a newer phone should out perform its predecessors but all the carriers let you test drive these phones. If you dont like it get a different phone. Its not real hard.

I dont think HTC selecting a chipset is promising us anything. If you look at the chip diagram there is a spot on there for TV out. Are we bitching an moaning that our phones do not have a svideo out or a rca out? Qualcomm is designing a chip to do as much as possible and appeal to as many companys as possible. HTC has a business model to follow. If it was going to take too long or cost too much to add feature x then fiscally they have to make a decision to add or not add said feature. I am guessing that HTC would not cripple a device on purpose just to piss you guys off. HTC would probably love for all of the phones they offer to have Wifi, 3D hell WiMax but its not always possiblel. I'm not a HTC shill or anything I think they could do alot of good just saying that they are working on it.

I personally love my mogul. I love what it can do and what i cannot do obviously was not a deal breaker for me. I honestly really do not want to game or watch movies on my phone. Maybe a short clip, Youtube or a game of Zuma or Bejeweled but If I want an enjoyable multimedia experience I am 10 out of 10 times either using my PSP or my Ipod Touch.

Generally speaking the more a device tries to do the worse it is at doing all of it. I want my phone to excel a being a PDA and a phone first and formost. If these new drivers reduced my battery life I may have to skip them anyway.

[dew.man]

Well put, eehrhard

[eehrhard]

You know... At least these features are possible. Maybe our phones are "de-tuned" (to keep the car references rolling) But at least the phones may be a factory detuned R-34 Skyline that with a little work will double its horsepower and not a Nissan Sentra that has a perfomance celing that without alot of money and work will always be slow.

[dew.man]

I just don't understand why there's so much more talk about the video performace rather than the SD bug (which was a promissed feature)...

Any why are the SlingBox people blaming the HTC device rather than demanding better software from SlingBox? My Orb streams withouth any hickups via TCPMP...

[atoy74]

Dew.man, yes, these chips are made for that reason but, as I stated -

"By HTC promoting that they're using that chipset they were also implying that those features would be available if not explicitly stated where they weren't (available.)"

HTC/Sprint DID explicitly state that there was no wifi and we all knew that going in. I don't miss wifi, I'm not upset that the device is technically capable of using wifi but it's not there. I knew that before I purchased.

BUT, my main point is that a new/better model is implied to perform better. If you purchased a new PC with an Nvidia video card you should expect driver support and that it out performs your 2yr old PC.

[dew.man]

Originally Posted by atoy74

"By HTC promoting that they're using that chipset they were also implying that those features would be available if not explicitly stated where they weren't (available.)"

So what about the Video Out capabilities of the chipset? Are we entitled to an RCA video out jack?

Originally Posted by atoy74

BUT, my main point is that a new/better model is implied to perform better. If you purchased a new PC with an Nvidia video card you should expect driver support and that it out performs your 2yr old PC.

In many ways, some of my old laptops with Windows 98 will out perform/run circles around my brand new one with Vista.

[Donatom3]

Ok here is a post that is relevent to our discussion here. As you can see from Qualcomm's own diagrams. The graphics is a core part of the MSM 7500 Chipset.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070203200058/http://www.cdmatech.com/download_library/pdf/diagram_msm7500_cs.pdf

http://web.archive.org/web/20061102061650/http://www.cdmatech.com/download_library/pdf/msm7500_chipset.pdf

Ok hopefully that diagram helps explain it better. MSM 7500 isn't just a processor it's a board standard. As you can see the Graphics core is a standard of the board. As for the 8 megapixel camera. The board is capable of that, but from the diagram you can see that it is dependent on the CMOS or CCD sensor used. Also why people think that since the Mogul has Wifi the Touch should have it but it's disabled. You can see from the diagram the WiFi is something that can be added through MMC/SD/SDIO interface of the MSM 7500 board.

So yes if you buy a device advertising the MSM 7500 chipset you expect your device to include what's on the MSM 7500 board you don't expect the items that can be added to the board. From reading the second PDF I listed you can see what Qualcom says is part of the board (features you expect a phone with the MSM 7500 to have), and what features are supported (i.e. you wouldn't expect unless the handset manufacturer advertises them).

Graphics and Video Codecs are integrated parts. The ability to support the 8 megapixel camera is integrated into the chipset, but the 8 megapixel CCD/CMOS sensor isn't.