Washington State AGO Investigation into the Mogul

[sprintrjm]

I was one of the earliest adopters of the 6800, i think the device is pretty good on the whole.

But sprint advertised gps as a function on their purchase page back in june.

It may not say anything about gps on sprints site now, but it did for the first few months.

I think the only legitimate quibble we might have with the phone, with regards to a all out sprint war would be the gps statement. But we knew it did not have gps within the first 30 days, the trial period in which we could easlily return it for a full refund.

Otherwise im satisfied with the mogul.

I just wish it had bluetooth 5.0, 100 "TERROR"bytes of memory and a quad core processor, 1280x1024 display, the form factor of a nickel, red in color, 802.11 z, thought based text messaging, a keyboard that slides out with hydraulic acuators "i want my phone to have the 3 wheel motion", An iphone like look feel and taste, a virtual keyboard and a non virtual keyboard, a bigger sprint logo, 3d porn.

The true complaint should be directed at microsoft for falling behind in a a technology race, and sitting on their hands atop of a billion dollars. Or not.

but thats just me.

[GoodThings2Life]

Interesting note about the GPS being advertise in June. Assuming for a moment that's accurate, I admit that I was still in "cell phones are evil, and it'll be a cold day in Hell before I own one" stage then. Still, as you pointed out, within 30 days it would have been obvious, and the correct response would have been to return it for not having advertised functionality.

LOL @ your wish list!

[wickedklown]

Originally Posted by GoodThings2Life

Still, as you pointed out, within 30 days it would have been obvious, and the correct response would have been to return it for not having advertised functionality.

This is definetly something I learned with my first PPC (Mogul) and will be more critical how i use those 30 days on my next PPC.

When I first got the Mogul I was having a lot of bluetooth issues. After talking to Tech support I was informed that this was a known issue. I was within my 30 day trial but was assured that a rom fix for the BT issues was coming out like the following month and that I should hold tight. Well like a sucker I took them for their word and went past the 30 days. Well when the broken rom came, their initial response was "ah past the 30 days?" kinda pissed me off I got baited like that lol.. oh well live and learn.

But to Ecare did take care of me after a few emails, so kudos to them.

[JPMinAR]

I'm actually no noob though my stats say I am. I've developed my own custom rom kitchen for the Apache and just got a Mogul a month ago and am working to do the same for the Mogul.

To the issue at hand... for those that are complaining try not to grip at others that might not know what is going on and might also jump on your wagon and support you.

For those new to the Mogul the list above is not a complete one. Here is what is going on:
1. The Bluetooth issue... The Sprint Mogul had a serious issue with bluetooth headset compatablity and audio quality. Some head sets would not work at all, others would work once and stop until hard reset other's worked and then stopped and then started again. Other Sprint phones have had issues with their bluetooth stacks but none quite this severe and none with the impact to BT headsets in particular (most issue with BT Headphones).

2. Lock-ups. This issue did not affect all customers but those it did where frequently affected. The issue dealt with those with 2 CDMA services in their area particularly Qualcom. When the phone hit a non-sprint tower it would lock. This mean a TON of reboots.

3. Battery Life. The battery life advertised was lab conditions only and rarely if ever meet not in comparison to the Apache it is still better but a large part of the issue was the radio provided by Sprint which also caused the above issue.

4. GPS. (Or Assisted GPS) This is one of those you can't miss something you never had type issue. Sprint originally advertised the Mogul would have GPS capabilities. Even though this advertisement was pulled it was advertised and I don't know about you all but I've not heard of a single person that has gotten GPS working on their phone. This still is being promised in an update to come 1Q 2008 Which could be Late Feb early March.

5. Track history
Lastely Sprint already has a long history of not delivering on time or on expectations of promises. The Apache(6700) the predecessor to the Mogul(Titan) was promised to release in August and I didn't get one until the third week of May. At least that time they didn't give it too me with 1/2 of what it was suppose to do they just didn't get it to me.

To be fair Sprint made and earlier than promised ROM update that did improve the first 3 items somewhat. The GPS still is not here though and none of the listed items should have happened to begin with. From here you can choose to complain to a AG and hope they take action just not likely to speed up Sprint much, complain to Sprint preferably to their Retention Dept and try and negotiate for some free or reduced something (why not never hurts), and last but not least wait for the hackers and crackers here and on other xda development sites to fix thing and not wait on Sprint check out the forum and many have already fixed the battery and locking issues with patches based on Alltel's ROMs etc.

Well it's late and I have a long Christmas lined up. Hope you all have a Merry (Mighty) Christmas. (Merry means mighty why else have Robinhood's Merry men.)

[canospinach]

I took the time to find some formal info on the subject.

Its very general and unclear. It simply states "Uses GPS" and does not confirm or deny which GPS services the handset actually supports. Notice it also states the 6700 and the Treo 650 on the list yet clearly those devices do not support GPS Navigation either.

http://support.sprint.com/doc/sp1055...revPageIndex=7

The global positioning system (GPS) is a satellite navigation system. More than two dozen GPS satellites orbit the Earth transmitting radio signals, which allow GPS enabled devices such as phones to determine their location. The location may be expressed in longitude and latitude or it may be shown on a map. Location services can help you get directions or locate someone else who has a GPS enabled phone. For more information on the location services, go to Real-time tracking.
The following Sprint Nextel devices use GPS:

Audiovox: PM-8912, PM-8920, PPC-6600
BlackBerry®: 7100i, 7130e, 7250, 7520, 8830, 8703e
HTC: Mogul™
LG®: 1200, 5350, Fusic, LX-350, Muziq, PM-225, PM-325, VI-125, VI-5225
Motorola: C290, i205, i215, i265, i275, i305, i315, i325, i355, i530, i560, i580, i58sr, i605, i615, i670, i710, i730, i733, i760, i830, i833, i836, i850, i860, i870, i880, i88s, i920, i930, ic402, ic502, ic902, MOTO Q, MOTOKRZR K1m, MOTORAZR V3m, MOTOSLVR L7c, NNCS i736
Nokia®: 3155i, 3585i, 3588i, 6016i, 6165i, PM-6225
Palm®: Treo 600, Treo 600NC, Treo 650, Treo 700P, Treo 700wx, Treo 755P
Samsung®: A400, A420, A500, A560, A580, A600, IP-830w, M300, M500, M510, M610, MM-A700, MM-A800, MM-A880, MM-A900, MM-A920, MM-A940, N400, PM-A740, PM-A840, RL-A760, SPH-A460, SPH-A640, SPH-i500, UpStage™ by Samsung, VGA1000, VI-660, VM-A680
Sanyo®: Katana, Katana II, M1, MM-5600, MM-7400, MM-7500, MM-8300, MM-9000, PM-8200, RL-2000, RL-2500, RL-4920, RL-4930, RL-7300, SCP-200, SCP-2400, SCP-3100, SCP-3200, SCP-4900, SCP-5300, SCP-7000, SCP-7050, SCP-8100, SCP-8400, VI-2300, VM-4500
Sierra Wireless: AirCard 595U, AirCard 597E
Toshiba®: VM-4050
UTStarcom: CDM-105, CDM-120, PPC-6700

The Navigation link also does a poor job of clarifying devices and services.

NOTE: based upon the verbage on the GPS page i can certainly see why someone would believe navigation was active on the device. However nothing directly states the device supports any certain GPS Navigation features.

I post this as GPS is a key feature in the "Not As Advertised" discussion.

[canospinach]

Originally Posted by klurf8881

just FYI people are talking about on sprint.com when you search through the phones, there are bullet points of the feature highlights. GPS enabled was initially a bullet point for the mogul, hence many thought it was an included feature. Trust me it was CLEARLY deceptive on Sprint's part

Trust me, i completely understand what people are referring to. However as you know the burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim. Whether or not you feel it was "Clearly Deceptive" is purely your perspective and in no way is fact or should be a basis to be considered fact. That being said there is a place for opinion here.

Originally Posted by klurf8881

oh and to your last post a page back about the name calling, the most valuable thing ive picked up working at a law school and starting myself here soon is its all "sticks and stones" and there will always be people who dont agree and dont go about it maturely. Life is 10% action and 90% how you react to it.

Thank you, i will take your post as a compliment.

BTW i find its an optimum choice to live by Action and not reaction as people who are reactionary really never have control of their own destiny

Originally Posted by klurf8881

back to the general point, the people who deny problems say others are "whining" Its not too much to expect a $550 to work with basic features such as bluetooth correctly that a $50 flip phone does. Theres NO reason anyone here has to justify their issues with the phone- sprint has come forward and admitted problems (with bluetooth for one) and no less than 100 users and prob much much higher have reported the same types of issues across message boards. 10 people, ok i see doubting it, but were talking mass numbers of users.

Your comparison is unfair and here is why: A $50 flip phone is not as complicated a device (from an engineering standpoint) as a WM device. It is only comparable in the fact they are both devices used to make calls. A Porsche will have completely different issues from a Hyundai. It should be clear in my daily role i work with the carriers and have been in wireless for almost 20 years. I have an excellent understanding of the sheer mass and nature of the situation.

As you know from your own experience, litigation has few benefactors. If Ebmorgan is going to make dramatic claims and tell people they are wrong (he also told me i was wrong) i simply want him to provide evidence to substantiate his claim. You should be talking to him as it is his choice as to who he bullies his opinions on.

Originally Posted by klurf8881

And yes i will vouch CS, tech support, anyone at sprint DID insure mogul users that they would have the issues fixed and NOT to return them. S0 a lot of people did keep them past 30 days on this notion that they would take responsibility and fix the problems in a timely manner, now 6 months later and still not up to par......I understand how people feel duped, i sure did, but luckily i did get it returned with sprint and got a touch instead.

The MAJOR problem also i see is that people do say "call sprint and get a resolution" OK, apparently these people have never called CS in their lives. ANYTHING with sprint is a fight. heck i had to fight them for 2 freakin weeks to get a check mailed for a $500 balance on my account THEY OWED ME. why i had to argue and call 5 diff departments, i have no clue. Which btw was a returned mogul and i had to fight them to get that returned too. They dont just give in to what you say that easily EVEN if you can clearly list your problems and validate them. Theyre made to sell a product and dont want returns obviously without a fight to sway you to give up.

Its MUCH easier said than done to get anything done contacting sprint, trust me. And they deny people returning their mogul's even if they truely dont work right. Its just not a viable solution in all cases. Some people are stuck with no resolution to legit problems, you have to recognize that

WHAT THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE- a kind of "silent recall" as in if people want to return them let them, if people want to keep them and stick it out so be it. Give people and option to return it 30 days or not if there are clear issues with basic functions on it. THAT'S good business and taking care of your customers who pay way more a year on average to you for service than the cost of that phone.

Your statement mirrors a majority of statements made by people who deal with organizations with large Client Services volume and is in no way unique other than it pertains to you. FYI it takes approximately 21 days for a paper check to go through the validation process and be issued. You had other options (account credit etc).

I know for a fact if you approach Sprint correctly they will do exactly what you suggest in that they will swap out a handset for another or different model in a deserving situation, regardless of initial ownership time. Due to the fact the manufacturer (not SPCS) carries the warranty on the product if you do not have ESP and you ask for warranty after the initial 30 day period you will be referred back to HTC as it is their responsibility to satisfy the warranty issues after the initial 30 days.

You can search this forum and see for yourself the numbers of people who have been taken care of by having alternate handset exchanges. As Jbonilla pointed out, i am one such person. To be entirely frank I have had a Treo 600 swapped into a Treo 650, Swapped into a 6700, swapped into one of my current 6800s. Non of it had to do with my relationships and was handled at the Core Store level as any other consumer. Yes i deal with my issues just like you or any other client.

I worked on the Nextel Service Center rollout and was involved after the merger when the technologies were integrated at the service level, i have a fair understanding of the capabilities.

You say its not easy, your right. Things that have value often are not. If the user wants easy, no hassles then i might recommend a no contract or pre-paid service where you can cancel without ETF and not have potential billing concerns as you described.

[jtrag]

Someone please close this thread...

[GoodThings2Life]

First of all, kudos to JPMinAR for actually summing things up in a way that eb and his followers have refused. This post is in no way directed at JPMinAR. Any use of "you" is meant as a "you in general who are complaining against Sprint" and this is an expansion of JPMinAR's details.

Originally Posted by JPMinAR

1. The Bluetooth issue...

This is true, but it partly the nature of Bluetooth. Bluetooth is a very quirky standard in the first place, and BT2.0 is not necessarily backwards compatible with BT1.0, and other 1.x versions. That said, each firmware release has made compatibility better, and 2.17 is generally regarded as being pretty decent.

Originally Posted by JPMinAR

2. Lock-ups.

This issue is admittedly due to the 2.16 firmware, and most of us are having considerably better luck with 2.17 and PRL 60611. In the cases where those don't work, there's always the 2.09 firmware and the upcoming Q1 '08 update. (As a user, you can always go "custom" too and use 1.40 radio, although I obviously don't consider that a Sprint/HTC remedy.)

Originally Posted by JPMinAR

3. Battery Life.

Admittedly, this issue is somewhat legitmate due to a poor choice in default settings. They chose functionality over battery life by leaving Wifi, Beams, and Bluetooth enabled by default. Furthermore, the various Power Management registry tweaks floating around should probably be implemented by default. Even so, the latest firmware and PRL update improve the radios enough that many users are reporting better than and sometimes double the advertised life, obviously depending on coverage area (low areas force the radios to work harder which drains the battery faster). Also, setting multiple, large email accounts to sync immediately will drain the battery quickly. For example, I set mine to sync limited info every 30 minutes, and that has gained back approx 40% of my battery life during my 13-hour days.

Originally Posted by JPMinAR

4. GPS.

As canospinach has documented very clearly, while many phones are listed as having GPS capability, the documentation makes no mention of services offered. As you are no doubt aware, the Mogul does have limited GPS locator functionality already, it is simply not in a user-defined state. That immediately invalidates the claim against it. The phone has a GPS module in it, and it is enabled for Sprint signal tracking, therefore, the phone has GPS capability as advertised. It was never advertised-- as the documentation shows-- that it would be user-accessible, and I stand by the fact that their change in policy with the Q1 '08 update is merely a bonus feature.

Originally Posted by JPMinAR

5. Track history

This is a double-edged sword of an issue. On the one hand, as a tech guy for a company, I know full well that marketing often sets goals that cannot be easily achieved (come on folks, read Dilbert once in a while, it's funnier when you discover it's true). On the other hand, I also know that customers often make a poor choice of waiting for an unreleased product rather than buying what is available, and worse, they often buy on what others tell them rather than putting in the consumer research necessary. If you were to read my personal blog for the first two weeks of October, you'd see that I spent two weeks looking at phones and carriers.

As I've said in previous threads, Sprint-- and more importantly, HTC-- has worked diligently to resolve the issues each step of the way. The responsible course of action is ALWAYS to evaluate a phone within 30 days and then return it if it fails expectations. If you are met with resistance or a promise of a fix, it is your decision to accept it or insist on the exchange.


Finally, Merry Christmas to everyone... even if I disagree with your position on this issue, I hope you have an enjoyable holiday, and a prosperous new year!

[slvrap1]

I dont think anything meaningfull can added after GoodThings2Life last post, that about sums it up =D>

[Goddbody]

Originally Posted by canospinach

So again........

You openly admit "Please Just STFU" is not Civil, Decent or INTELLIGENT? AND You seriously believe thats ok? did you not read the forum rules before signing up?

BTW well documented complaints do not imply that its not "As Advertrised" or that its "Broken". No Amount of "Wishing" will change that.

"Negative Thought" i love that, thats the pot calling the kettle black (pun intended). Simply because its a different perspective you immediatly say its negative. Nice way to showcase tolerance.

I have read some of your posts, your earlier post is exactly in character for you to attack someone. How can we take you seriously when this is your standard MO?

EDIT - If as you say you read all the posts you would know that EbMorgan came at me in another thread, telling me i was "Wrong" and then did not bother to validate his arguement by showing any evidence. I came here expressing my opinion in response to his approach. Are you sure you read all the posts as you claim in your first post?




I am really glad you responded.

Jbonilla - as you like to point out, you dont own a mogul, dont have any firsthand experience with the issues and still cannot address the primary question.


Thank you for continuing to set the example which completely validates my point. I appreciate it.


I will continue to repeat myself until you or anyone else decides to address the real issue.




Thats right, as you mentioned several times, your not an owner, dont have firsthand experience and therefore dont really have a leg to stand on in your argument.

I have all the time in the world. We can continue until you address the issue. Ignoring the question will not make it go away.

FYI, 3rd party validation means nothing to my ego. Your personal attacks really just show your ignorance. I have attempted to keep it professional and urged you to stick to the issues. You have no one to blame but yourself for what comes of your prideful childish arrogant attitude.

Thank you again for continuing to validate my point.

EDIT - Bottom line, the question above is key to the merit of the lawsuit. IF you cannot provide verification to the claims, then the lawsuit would appear to be lacking of merit and validity. Clearly then the light that this is simply an extreme dramatization begins to appear when evidence for the specific claim cannot be manifested.

From my post : "to anyone who response and doesn't own the device nor experienced the functionality issues that we have":
Dude where did it say I dont own a mogule? We is plural, meaning more then one person including myself. I think reading all your post is evidence that your only intention here is to feed your need to debate. Nice try though, but I'm not interested. You offer no constructive solution toward a resolution of this issue except a babbling tirade in a vein effort to solitify your weak argument. Who cares if no one shows evidence that Sprint didn't deliver the Mogule as advertised, the bottom line is that it is a functionally troubled device. What if someone satisfies your quest of proof that Sprint falsely advertised this product (I think several people have already though)? What will this do to constructively help consumers on this issue. Blank stare. (oo)
I will answer this question for you. Absolutely nothing, but feed the ego of yet another babbling insignificant poster. Quit while your ahead. Any prolonged posting on this thread by you would only prove further that you seek something other then a constructive resolution to this issue which is legitimate for those of us that have experienced functionality issues with the Mogule, So, once again please just STFU.