A little tough Love about battery issues.

[lipidfats]

GREAT post, I agree that I would rather have my phone stop charging than overheat. This phone has so many improvements over our old phones, so we should be happy with the battery life they've managed to get out of this thing. My battery lasted slightly longer on my mogul because I left it alone more out of fear that it would freeze, thus missing urgent calls and losing important texts. With the Touch Pro, I am free to use and abuse my phone like I've always wanted and it has yet to freeze; so naturally, my battery life is going to suffer because I'm on it more. I think it's funny that there are people demanding longer battery life, but refuse to buy a real extended battery because it'll make the form slightly thicker - you can't have it both ways. If you want to keep your phone looking sexy, then you're going to have to make some sacrifices.
HTC has outdone themselves this time around and it makes me look forward to their future lineup.
Thanks again for this post, maybe it'll calm the storm of some of the unnecessary complaints... for those that have real issues then I feel for ya.

[Palladium]

Since we are discussing background and qualifications, I have been writing software for and using PPC's since the days of Pocket PC 2000 (for the newbies, that is what WinMo used to be called 8 years ago). And design Online Monitoring systems (hardware and software) for process control equipment.

I have used more different devices that I can count. While this is my first move to the combination device platform. I well understand the power issues involved in these type of devices.

The power consumption of the PPC side of this device is similar to stand alone PDAs, In fact it is much better than the early XScale processor based devices. And as a PDA with all of the radios off power managment/usage on this device is as good as any PDA that I have written software for.

Where I part with the opinions of others on this board is in the issue of power consumption by the radios.

I have measured for better than a week and a half what I consider as excessive power draw by these radios. The radios on the Touch Pro have a maximum rated output of 0.29 watts of energy. However, the device draws 2+ watts of power to generate the 0.29 W of transmitted signal. By comparison, typical microwave (celluar) transmitters run between 50 and 75% efficent. This one is 13% efficent.

Regardless of whether these issues result in heating etc. It drains the battery much faster than it could (and should). My position and point since day 1 has been that work needs to be done to improve the efficiencies of these radios. If these radios worked as efficiently as what I have seen on the Qualcomm datasheets, We would be seeing 4-5 times the talk time with the same battery.

This is not something than can simply be done by tweeking the Radio parameters. This requires a more detailed look at the radio software to solve, something that no one here or at XDA can do, it requires acess to the source code and thus HTC.

[xweaponx]

Personally I believe Big D5 & Palladium are both accurate to summarize this thread; possible radio inefficency & larger processor size reduce battery life significantly. I have owned just about every PPC within HTC's lineup on Alltel, Sprint & Verizon and the battey life seems reasonably justified considering hardware, coverage, personal usage, charging habits and applications requiring active downloading/updating.

I learned with my 2nd PPC to always purchase (2) extra batteries & base charger; (1) battery in the car, (1) for work and (1) in my phone and the base charger replenishes any depleted batteries over night. This maximizes battery trained life and ensures optimized battery charge/discharge.

I have been untethered to a charger for years...

[Big D5]

Originally Posted by Palladium

Since we are discussing background and qualifications, I have been writing software for and using PPC's since the days of Pocket PC 2000 (for the newbies, that is what WinMo used to be called 8 years ago). And design Online Monitoring systems (hardware and software) for process control equipment.

I have used more different devices that I can count. While this is my first move to the combination device platform. I well understand the power issues involved in these type of devices.

The power consumption of the PPC side of this device is similar to stand alone PDAs, In fact it is much better than the early XScale processor based devices. And as a PDA with all of the radios off power managment/usage on this device is as good as any PDA that I have written software for.

Where I part with the opinions of others on this board is in the issue of power consumption by the radios.

I have measured for better than a week and a half what I consider as excessive power draw by these radios. The radios on the Touch Pro have a maximum rated output of 0.29 watts of energy. However, the device draws 2+ watts of power to generate the 0.29 W of transmitted signal. By comparison, typical microwave (celluar) transmitters run between 50 and 75% efficent. This one is 13% efficent.

Regardless of whether these issues result in heating etc. It drains the battery much faster than it could (and should). My position and point since day 1 has been that work needs to be done to improve the efficiencies of these radios. If these radios worked as efficiently as what I have seen on the Qualcomm datasheets, We would be seeing 4-5 times the talk time with the same battery.

This is not something than can simply be done by tweeking the Radio parameters. This requires a more detailed look at the radio software to solve, something that no one here or at XDA can do, it requires acess to the source code and thus HTC.

Nice post very well stated, now let me ask you some questions with your expertise you might be able to answer. All the Sprint PDA's that I have had have the same battery issues could the radio draw be related to EVDO? I have had PDA's since it was called just plain Windows CE those devices had great battery life even my last non converged devise the E-100 would go days between charges with the addition of the radio on these devices battery power really took a hit. HTC seams to have these devices figured out could the battery issues with all windows mobile converged devices be radio related and be being caused by the carrier added software that controls the radio I.E. not an HTC issue at all? I know its not just EVDO my Nephew has a Tilt GSM device and the battery on that device is right in line with all the outers. Have the makers of these devices set a battery usage verses all other aspects bench mark to hold? Why is the radio draw such a point of interest in your eyes when even the GSM devices have the same base line battery issues? If the battery issue you are tracking is the route cause of bad battery life in the Sprint TP why do all the other similar devices have the same problem?

[Sponge14]

I am sorry, but I must disagree with the belief that the battery life on this phone is acceptable. It is less then half of what my mogul was. I can have the phone off the charger for 2 hours and not use it once. When I see the battery life already at 70% I know there is a problem.

Everyone says the battery is good, "for what it does," well what does this thing to that my mogul didn't do? Sure, the screen is more pretty and it has more RAM, but what is this thing doing that my mogul didn't? HTC needs to do something about 2 things for this phone to be great. 1) Fix the heat issues 2) Fix the battery life. Not sure how #1 can be easily fixed other than with a Radio update, from what I have read here that would be a big issue. #2 can be solved by replacing existing batteries with at least a 1500mah battery, or releasing an extended life battery in the US for a decent price.

[blackwatch]

http://news-service.stanford.edu/new...re-010908.html

Maybe 3-5 years the battery life will be a thing of the past, and we wont have to follow the ABC's of batteries.

Always
Be
Charging

[GoodThings2Life]

Very well said D5, thank you! I'd also like to add two facts that people often ignore with these types of devices:

1. 4 HOURS OF CONTINUOUS TALK DOES NOT MEAN 4 HOURS OF TALK PLUS A MOVIE ON THE DRIVE HOME, MUSIC AT THE OFFICE ALL DAY, DIRECT PUSH EMAIL, AND INTERNET SURFING LIKE IT'S GOING OUT OF STYLE. It means what it says-- 4 hours of talk, OR some other combination of talk plus the features that adds up to 1340mAH (ok, that's not a technically accurate statement but it drives the point home). If you talk for 2 hours, that's 50% so take 20% for let's say X hours of email sync, web surfing and GPS usage. There's 70% gone, and you've barely scratched the surface of your day.

2. HTC releases firmware updates over time that eventually level off and improve the battery life to be a little more generous than their specs. My Mogul started off as advertised and eventually gave me specs plus maybe 10-20% depending on my usage. I'm sure the same will happen as newer radios are released.

3. OK, I lied, I have a third point to add... PPC's are more designed for PDA functionality than talk. You can complain all you want about how that shouldn't be the case, but the fact remains that it IS the case for now. They're designed for data and organizational usage like calendar/tasks, otherwise, people would stick with their flip-phones for strictly talking.

Bottom line-- D5, myself, others-- well, I'm pretty sure it's safe to say none of us are asking if you like it anymore. In fact, I'm pretty sure the line is drawn in the sand, and we're telling you to DEAL WITH IT or move on as appropriate for your needs.

Carry extra batteries if your usage requires it. Keep a cradle on your desk and set your phone on it when not in use at the office. Or go out and buy that precious Instinct or iPhone or Storm or whatever gets the job done. But let me tell you this-- even my colleagues with iPhone 3G's sit around at their desks with their phones connected to a charger all day. At least we have the option to swap our battery out if we want!

Alternative solutions in the way of tweaks are always welcome in terms of optimizing power management, but complaints and petitions demanding updates accomplishes nothing. They're going to release updates whether you petition or not, and whining doesn't make them push the updates out any faster.

Just my value-meal pricing worth of opinion on the matter.

[lipidfats]

Originally Posted by Sponge14

I am sorry, but I must disagree with the belief that the battery life on this phone is acceptable. It is less then half of what my mogul was. I can have the phone off the charger for 2 hours and not use it once. When I see the battery life already at 70% I know there is a problem.

After I take it off of external power, it usually takes me a couple hours before I ever touch the pro (Although I quickly check voicemail/text/email). My battery is always at 90% when I check the phone after those couple hours. Keep in mind that my battery meter uses 10% increments, so I'm not sure what the exact percentage is but it's no where close to the 70% you're claiming. So is there a problem? Yes, but perhaps it's just your phone. You must have some serious apps running on startup or something else must be affecting it. I'll check again tomorrow morning, but i'm 90% positive that my battery will be at 90%

[GoodThings2Life]

Originally Posted by Sponge14

I am sorry, but I must disagree with the belief that the battery life on this phone is acceptable. It is less then half of what my mogul was. I can have the phone off the charger for 2 hours and not use it once. When I see the battery life already at 70% I know there is a problem

Sorry Sponge, but I don't think anyone is saying it's "acceptable" (well maybe some would but--). I think most of us are saying that it is what it is, and if it's not acceptable to you then perhaps it was not the right investment for you... or... perhaps you just need to adapt.

[Palladium]

Originally Posted by Big D5

Nice post very well stated, now let me ask you some questions with your expertise you might be able to answer. All the Sprint PDA's that I have had have the same battery issues could the radio draw be related to EVDO? I have had PDA's since it was called just plain Windows CE those devices had great battery life even my last non converged devise the E-100 would go days between charges with the addition of the radio on these devices battery power really took a hit. HTC seams to have these devices figured out could the battery issues with all windows mobile converged devices be radio related and be being caused by the carrier added software that controls the radio I.E. not an HTC issue at all? I know its not just EVDO my Nephew has a Tilt GSM device and the battery on that device is right in line with all the outers. Have the makers of these devices set a battery usage verses all other aspects bench mark to hold? Why is the radio draw such a point of interest in your eyes when even the GSM devices have the same base line battery issues? If the battery issue you are tracking is the route cause of bad battery life in the Sprint TP why do all the other similar devices have the same problem?

Based on what I have done this weekend (since I use my phone for work this is the first opportunity to COMPLETELY DISABLE all of the radios (airplane mode) and just use the Touch Pro as a PDA) Here is what I see. After a full charge Friday Night, I have not charged it. and still have 46% battery left as of 7pm EDT Sunday. That is with 8 hours of solid PDA use with the screen on (debugging a new app) and at least 3 hours in Power Mode D2 (unattended, Screen off but processor at full power).

That leads me to believe that the issues lie in the radio. My power usage diagnostics also show that during normal usage the power draw on the Battery is about 160mA, however whenever on a data or phone call the current draw jumps to over 500 mA.

So yes I beleive that the issues lie in the EVDO and phone Radios. From my understanding of the Qualcomm MSM platform, the radios are implemented using a separate ARM6 processor to generate the digital transmission signal for the integrated CDMA or GSM transmission hardware. The actual transmission hardware is slightly different based on flavor (and essentially the same as any standard GSM or CDMA phone), but what drives that hardware is primarily software based.

The basic software to drive the transmitter is very similar regardless of CDMA or GSM and will have to be tweeked for each carrier. Since all of the recent HTC devices have been based on essentially the same MSM platform, If I were doing the software development I would reuse the same code libraries from generation to generation (with any bug or required hardware changes). (This next statement is solely speculation) So IF a bug entered in the early implementation for the chipset, it is likely to have made it through subsequent generations since in general most users will accept battery life as what it is and not ask why it is what it is.

However, with the systems I have had to design, I have always had to ask why I am using a given amount of power and what can be done to reduce it even further. So this is something I am used to analyzing with the software/hardware systems that I work on and why it just seemed natural for me to focus in on what was drawing the power.

I think I covered all of the questions that I can speak to....