Li-ion Type Battery's For Dummies And The Otherwise Misinformed

[Intermountain Trust]

Originally Posted by TurboFool

Fantastic and vital information. Too many myths surround these batteries, and having the truth laid out on the table is very helpful.

And I think the spelling error the smartass friend was referring to was "battery's" instead of "batteries." I know I can be anal about such things, as well, and that did distract me a bit at first. You might want to adjust that for obvious reasons. Otherwise, though, your thread is quite good.

that is an interesting point on spelling so i looked it up as i have been spelling it two different ways, it seem both spellings are correct.


Now can someone tell me how to delete the other post that i made responding to rawr's friend so we do not have so much garbage to look through. As entertaining as it was i do not think we need to have it as a distraction.

figured it out post deleted

[gguruusa]

Originally Posted by Intermountain Trust

that is an interesting point on spelling so i looked it up as i have been spelling it two different ways, it seem both spellings are correct.

battery's and batteries...

batteries is the plural form of battery (as in "I have many batteries")

battery's is the possesive form of battery (as in "This battery's positive terminal is corroded")

[Intermountain Trust]

Originally Posted by gguruusa

battery's and batteries...

batteries is plural of battery (as in "I have many batteries")

battery's is the possesive form of battery (as in "This battery's positive terminal is corroded")

Thank you for taking the time to post the explanation.

[gguruusa]

I've seen a lot of people get hung up on the 1000 in "Up to 1000 charge/discharge cycles can be expected if used within the expected service life of about two to three years". Please bear in mind that "1000" is not a hard and fast number - it's an approximation of expected drain/charge patterns in an "average" environment. Your mileage will vary.

[canospinach]

Since you did not take the time to edit your original post, instead you chose to copy it directly over, it seems only appropriate to clarify your quote of my other post from another thread so that it is not misconstrued.

Originally Posted by Intermountain Trust

i see you are giving battery advice, I have not had time to respond to your lack of research until now.

Thanks Intermountain Trust, not sure why you believe i have a lack of information or research, but lets shed some light here on your info.

BTW - very good info, thank you for contributing.

Current battery technology has only so many "Cycles" of charge. As i posted which you misunderstood, not "Cycles" as per a memory effect, which is what your evidence is referring to, but each time you charge i am using the term cycle. I can understand why you read the posted info and took with it a different meaning

Originally Posted by Intermountain Trust

There is no memory and no scheduled cycling is required to prolong the battery’s life

For example:

Originally Posted by Intermountain Trust

The internal resistance of the Li-ion batteries cannot be improved with cycling.

these are both clearly a statement in regards to "Memory Effect". "Cycling" as i put it is something completely different and has zero to do with charging capacity. Instead we are talking about overall charging lifespan here.

Originally Posted by Intermountain Trust

Repeated insertion into the charger or cradle does not affect the battery by inducing overcharge

Li-Ions cannot be overcharged due to the protection internally as stated. However repeated insertion into a charger will decline the overall lifespan of the battery due again to its finite amount of charges it will take. These are 2 totally different statements in regards to "Cycling".

Originally Posted by Intermountain Trust

does not require periodic full discharge

True to keep its overall output. As i have stated in referance to a "Memory Effect". Again this in no way referances the overall amount of times the battery can be charged.

Originally Posted by Intermountain Trust

The Li-ion is most economical for those who use a mobile phone daily. Up to 1000 charge/discharge cycles can be expected if used within the expected service life of about two to three years

Thank you, this summerizes my point exactly as for charging "Cycles". As you can clearly see here the author states the exact point we are discussing.

Originally Posted by gguruusa

I've seen a lot of people get hung up on the 1000 in "Up to 1000 charge/discharge cycles can be expected if used within the expected service life of about two to three years". Please bear in mind that "1000" is not a hard and fast number - it's an approximation of expected drain/charge patterns in an "average" environment. Your mileage will vary.

Excellent point. Real world conditions can be very different from lab situations (statement of 1000 is based in lab conditions).

Originally Posted by Intermountain Trust

So far, little is known about the life expectancy of the Li-ion polymer. Because of the similarities with the Li-ion, the long-term performance of both systems is expected to be similar.

Li-ion and Li-ion Polymer can be really different in their behaviour even though they are both in the Li-ion family.

Again, great info. Thank you for helping me explain and validate my statement about "Charging cycles".

[Intermountain Trust]

Originally Posted by canospinach

Thanks Intermountain Trust, not sure why you believe i have a lack of information or research, but lets shed some light here on your info.

It seems the below statement is one you would prefer to ignore.

Originally Posted by Intermountain Trust

originally posted by canospinach
"I realize its not common knowledge which is why i wanted to share it here with you. Just because the majority of people speed does not mean it is right or correct. Just because people charge while talking does not imply it is the proper or right thing to do. In most cases they dont tell you that for best performance you need to drain your battery dead and then fully recharge, but its a fact of the design either way.

The fact is if you "drain your battery dead then fully recharge" you will kill a Li-ion type battery in short order this is a matter of fact. Frankly you would have had possibly thousands of individuals doing just this and killing their batteries prematurely. If you have any facts to the contrary please post them with a link to your research.

Originally Posted by canospinach

Current battery technology has only so many "Cycles" of charge. As i posted which you misunderstood, not "Cycles" as per a memory effect, which is what your evidence is referring to, but each time you charge i am using the term cycle. I can understand why you read the posted info and took with it a different meaning

Nothing was taken for granted, misunderstood or taken out of context. You simply prefer to ignore what you had previously stated breaking down a post and explain it away so as to make it appear you knew what you were talking about.

The fact there are only so many cycles is not in question nor has it been. If you optimally get 1000 charging cycles from a Li-ion type battery and you plugged it in twice a day to charge you would end up with approximately 1 year 4 months of life from your battery. I personally ended up with 1 year 11 months from my latest battery before it started to show the effects from aging but i still did not have to replace the battery, i simply replaced my phone at the 2 year mark. (There are some factors concerning this that i will make another post about.)

Originally Posted by canospinach

Li-ion and Li-ion Polymer can be really different in their behaviour even though they are both in the Li-ion family.

The below quote is from Mr. Isidor Buchmann website

"With gelled electrolyte added, what then is the difference between Li‑ion and Li‑ion polymer? Although the characteristics and performance of the two systems are very similar, the Li‑ion polymer is unique in that the solid electrolyte replaces the porous separator. The gelled electrolyte is simply added to enhance ion conductivity."

Please post any factual findings you have regarding your statement with a link to your research.


Lets cut to the chase here....

I am starting to see your personal pride issues.
Regardless of how you spin and try to explain away your initial statement it is still crystal clear. You do not need to deny it. You jumped to conclusions, made assumptions with Li-ion type batteries and got called on it.

I have read several of your posts in other threads, your earlier post is exactly in character for you. However in this case you were presented with the facts at which time you chose to explain away your post with items that were never really in question. Why should we take you seriously when you choose to ignore your first statement and solely concentrate on items that were never in question to begin with?



IT

[Intermountain Trust]

I previously stated that I ended up with a longer battery life then may bee I should have, this is based on using the math presented below.

Here is some loose math based on the facts from Mr. Buchmann's website
If you optimally get 1000 charging cycles from a Li-ion type battery and you plugged it in twice a day to charge you should end up with approximately 1 year 4 months of life from your battery. as stated this is not exact and is based on perfect conditions.

I personally ended up with 1 year 11 months from my latest battery before it started to show the effects from aging, however i still did not have to replace the battery. this is a full 7 months longer than the optimum life should have been if you charge just twice a day. in other words i ended up with approximately 210 extra days over the optimum as stated above. So what did I do different?

My personal experience before this was to only get approximately 1 year of life from a phone battery. As i learned more about batteries i surmised that changing one thing could end up giving a longer battery life. This change was to leave it plugged in while i talked on it instead of unplugging every time it reached a full charge. This led to not plugging it in as often hence supposedly using fewer charging cycles and keeping the battery at a full charge as recommended. This change in phone charging habits may have led to a longer life by not using up so many of the valuable charging cycles from the battery but there is no scientific data to prove this.

Granted I could have had the increased life simply because of advancements in technology but with the aging process disability that is involved with the Li-ion type battery I apparently did not decrease the life of the battery by doing this either. The fact is i am still using the phone as an emergency backup with the original battery it came with. As of now it is 27 months old from the time i purchased it, this time line does not include the aging from when the battery was made at the factory.

The normal disclaimer "Your mileage may vary" is in effect here.

And lets be perfectly clear about this I am in no way recommending that anyone else do what i have done. I am simply wondering if anyone else has tried this or something similar and what is your synopsis of what you noticed.

I am looking for some credible facts to either prove or disprove this observation from my experience, if you know of any please post it here.


IT

[GoodThings2Life]

At first, I was excited to see that someone else was taking time to educate people on lithium-ion best practices.

Unfortunately, this thread could be a whole lot better if it weren't done as a rant.

[Intermountain Trust]

Goodthings,

First of all please join and post your findings regarding batteries here. Second thanks for taking me to that post i followed one of your links which I will add to the links page. I had not remembered that particular site as it has been about 3 years sense i have seen it.

The site is another sponsored by Mr. Buchmann that has other information that i did not otherwise come across recently. one of those things that i think is important because of the whole E-Bay thing and people looking for cheap batteries i have copied and posted below.

Here is the link to Battery University a site sponsored by Mr. Buchmann's company Cadex Electronics Inc.
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/index.htm

enjoy IT

"Counterfeit cell phone batteries (clone batteries)

In the search for low-cost battery replacements, consumers may inadvertently purchase clone cell phone batteries that do not include an approved protection circuit. Lithium-ion packs require a protection circuit to shut off the power source if the charger malfunctions and keep on charging, or if the pack is put under undue stress (electrical short). Overheating and 'venting with flame' can be the result of such strain. (See photos of an exploded cell phone with clone battery on charge.)

Photos of a cell phone with a clone battery
that exploded while left on charge in a car


Cell phone manufacturers strongly advise customers to replace the battery with an approved brand. Failing to do so may void the warranty. Counterfeit cell phone batteries have become visible since the beginning of 2003 when the world was being flooded with cheap replacement batteries from Asia.

Cell phone manufacturers act out of genuine concern for safety rather than using scare tactics to persuade customers to buy their own accessories. They do not object to third party suppliers in offering batteries and chargers as long as the products are well built, safe and functioning. The buyer can often not distinguish between an original and a counterfeit battery because the label may appear bona fide.

Caution should also be exercised in purchasing counterfeit chargers. Some units do not terminate the battery correctly and rely on the battery's internal protection circuit to cut off the power when fully charged. Precise full-charge termination and a working protection circuit are needed for the safe use of the lithium-ion battery."

[paynej]

Ok, can you explain to me the difference between Li-Ion and Li-Poly batteries?


I've seen both available for our phones and have heard that they are not to be considered completely equal (capacities aside).

But I don't understand the differences that would make one preferable to the other.

Thanks!