Li-ion Type Battery's For Dummies And The Otherwise Misinformed

Intermountain Trust · #1 (**permalink**) 12-29-2007, 05:28 PM

This thread was started from a statement made, the facts presented and a request posed.

Many people are misinformed about the batteries that run our devices,
hopefully the facts presented in this thread will clear up any misinformation and rumors that are running rampant on the site.

I am not your battery expert nor do i expect to be, this thread is being started from hard sought research that i have done in the past, you will find this starting in post #3

If you post an answer to a question in this thread please include your research in the post, IE. working links to the research etc. This is not a place where we want to keep the misinformation flowing, in case you did not get it the point of this thread is to stop this misinformation.

i am reserving post #2 to post the links to any research that is quoted, please make the links in your post to match the first link in post #2 that way i can easily cut and paste the links that will take a reader to the facts and keep them in one easy to find assimilation area. I will attempt to keep post #2 up to date as best i can between my travels.

Enjoy, IT

Intermountain Trust · #2 (**permalink**) 12-29-2007, 05:29 PM

This is where you will find the links to research on batteries so you can easily refer back to information without going through several post.

Please list you links in the following way to make it easy to cut and past here.

This link below will take you to Batteries In A Portable World by researcher and writer, Mr. Isidor Buchmann president, founder and CEO of Cadex Electronics Inc.,
http://www.buchmann.ca/faq.asp

Here is the link to Battery University a site sponsored by Mr. Buchmann's company Cadex Electronics Inc.
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/index.htm

Intermountain Trust · #3 (**permalink**) 12-29-2007, 05:29 PM

originally posted by canospinach
"I realize its not common knowledge which is why i wanted to share it here with you. Just because the majority of people speed does not mean it is right or correct. Just because people charge while talking does not imply it is the proper or right thing to do. In most cases they dont tell you that for best performance you need to drain your battery dead and then fully recharge, but its a fact of the design either way.

Everytime you plug your handset into a power source you are taking a "Cycle" of charge away from your battery (the chemicals inside only do their thing so many times before they stop). People who run all day on and off the charge will kill their battery within a fairly short period (as they are using multiple cycles each day without draining the battery). Li-ion cells dont develop a "memory" for charge, but have the least amount of times they can be cycled. NiCd batteries had the most cycles of charge but had a horrible memory effect. There is no perfect battery yet.

As you mentioned if you are seeing excessive heat buildup usage patterns must be addressed. especially if you see the same reoccuring issue time and time again. At that point we can begin to rule out hardware factors and are instead directed towards environmental issues."

pflatlyne,
you stated that you have had 4 phones to date. My question is have you received a new battery with these phones, or have they done the typical take you battery out of the old phone and put it into the new one? if this is the case you may have a battery with defective overload circuits.
additionally i have been online using my mogul in phone as modem for up to 6 hours at a time without my battery heating up or quitting.
slowly charging the whole time which may be better for the battery as it keeps it from overheating while charging due to the lower charge rate.

canospinach,
i see you are giving battery advice, I have not had time to respond to your lack of research until now.
allow me to assist you,

i have personally kept my previous Li-ion powered phone plugged in constantly including while driving, the only exception to this is while i was walking around. My original battery lasted for a period of 1 year 11 months before i started to have noticeable effects from aging.

I however new the above statement would just not be good enough for you from threads i have been reading throughout this site. specifically where you constantly badgered an individual after their post challenging you on any level. this entry is a bit long for your benefit. i have made some highlights for the readers benefit i hope you enjoy.

The excerpts found below are from a book authored by Mr. Isidor Buchmann who is the president, founder and CEO of Cadex Electronics Inc. from his website at
http://http://www.buchmann.ca/faq.asp

"The Li-ion is a low maintenance battery, an advantage that no other chemistry can claim. There is no memory and no scheduled cycling is required to prolong the battery’s life. In addition to high energy density and lightweight, the self-discharge is less than half compared to the NiCd and NiMH, making the Li-ion well suited for modern fuel gauge applications.
On the negative, the Li-ion is fragile and requires a protection circuit to maintain safe operation. The load current is moderate and charging must be done according to strict standards. In addition, the Li-ion is subject to aging, whether used or not.

The loss of charge acceptance of the Li-ion/polymer batteries is due to cell oxidation, which occurs naturally during use and as part of aging.
Li-ion batteries cannot be restored with cycling or any other external means. The capacity loss is permanent because the metals used in the cells are designated to run for a specific time only and are being consumed during their service life.

Li-ion offers internal resistance characteristics that are between those of NiMH and NiCd. Usage does not contribute much to the increase in resistance, but aging does. The typical life span of a Li-ion battery is two to three years, whether it is used or not. Cool storage and keeping the battery in a partially charged state when not in use retard the aging process.
The internal resistance of the Li-ion batteries cannot be improved with cycling. The cell oxidation, which causes high resistance, is non-reversible. The ultimate cause of failure is high internal resistance. Energy may still be present in the battery, but it can no longer be delivered due to poor conductivity.

Is the Li-ion a better choice? Yes, for many applications. The Li-ion is a low maintenance battery which offers high energy, is lightweight and does not require periodic full discharge. No trickle charge is applied once the battery reaches full charge. The Li-ion battery can stay in most chargers until used. The charging process of a Li-ion is, in many ways, simpler and cleaner than that of nickel-based systems, but requires tighter tolerances. Repeated insertion into the charger or cradle does not affect the battery by inducing overcharge.

On the negative side, the Li-ion gradually loses charge acceptance as part of aging, even if not used. For this reason, Li-ion batteries should not be stored for long periods of time but be rotated like perishable food. The buyer should be aware of the manufacturing date when purchasing a replacement battery.

The Li-ion is most economical for those who use a mobile phone daily. Up to 1000 charge/discharge cycles can be expected if used within the expected service life of about two to three years. Because of the aging effect, the Li-ion does not provide an economical solution for the occasional user. If the Li-ion is the only battery choice and the equipment is seldom used, the battery should be removed from the equipment and stored in a cool place, preferably only partially charged.

So far, little is known about the life expectancy of the Li-ion polymer. Because of the similarities with the Li-ion, the long-term performance of both systems is expected to be similar. Much effort is being made to prolong the service life of lithium-based systems. New chemical additives have been effective in retarding the aging process.

Is the Li-ion a better choice? Yes, for many applications. The Li-ion is a low maintenance battery which offers high energy, is lightweight and does not require periodic full discharge. No trickle charge is applied once the battery reaches full charge. The Li-ion battery can stay in most chargers until used. The charging process of a Li-ion is, in many ways, simpler and cleaner than that of nickel-based systems, but requires tighter tolerances. Repeated insertion into the charger or cradle does not affect the battery by inducing overcharge.
On the negative side, the Li-ion gradually loses charge acceptance as part of aging, even if not used. For this reason, Li-ion batteries should not be stored for long periods of time but be rotated like perishable food. The buyer should be aware of the manufacturing date when purchasing a replacement battery.

For best results, keep the battery cool. In addition, store the battery at a 40 percent charge level. Never fully charge or discharge the battery before storage. The 40 percent charge assures a stable condition even if self-discharge robs some of the battery’s energy. Most battery manufacturers store Li-ion batteries at 15Â°C (59Â°F) and at 40 percent charge."

Simple Guidelines

Charge the Li-ion often, except before a long storage. Avoid repeated deep discharges.
Keep the Li-ion battery cool. Prevent storage in a hot car. Never freeze a battery.
Avoid purchasing spare Li-ion batteries for later use. Observe manufacturing date when purchasing. Do not buy old stock, even if sold at clearance prices.

IT

Intermountain Trust · #4 (**permalink**) 12-30-2007, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canospinach

Thanks Intermountain Trust, not sure why you believe i have a lack of information or research, but lets shed some light here on your info.

It seems the below statement is one you would prefer to ignore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intermountain Trust

originally posted by canospinach
"I realize its not common knowledge which is why i wanted to share it here with you. Just because the majority of people speed does not mean it is right or correct. Just because people charge while talking does not imply it is the proper or right thing to do. In most cases they dont tell you that for best performance you need to drain your battery dead and then fully recharge, but its a fact of the design either way.

The fact is if you "drain your battery dead then fully recharge" you will kill a Li-ion type battery in short order this is a matter of fact. Frankly you would have had possibly thousands of individuals doing just this and killing their batteries prematurely. If you have any facts to the contrary please post them with a link to your research.

Quote:

Originally Posted by canospinach

Current battery technology has only so many "Cycles" of charge. As i posted which you misunderstood, not "Cycles" as per a memory effect, which is what your evidence is referring to, but each time you charge i am using the term cycle. I can understand why you read the posted info and took with it a different meaning

Nothing was taken for granted, misunderstood or taken out of context. You simply prefer to ignore what you had previously stated breaking down a post and explain it away so as to make it appear you knew what you were talking about.

The fact there are only so many cycles is not in question nor has it been. If you optimally get 1000 charging cycles from a Li-ion type battery and you plugged it in twice a day to charge you would end up with approximately 1 year 4 months of life from your battery. I personally ended up with 1 year 11 months from my latest battery before it started to show the effects from aging but i still did not have to replace the battery, i simply replaced my phone at the 2 year mark. (There are some factors concerning this that i will make another post about.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by canospinach

Li-ion and Li-ion Polymer can be really different in their behaviour even though they are both in the Li-ion family.

The below quote is from Mr. Isidor Buchmann website

"With gelled electrolyte added, what then is the difference between Li‑ion and Li‑ion polymer? Although the characteristics and performance of the two systems are very similar, the Li‑ion polymer is unique in that the solid electrolyte replaces the porous separator. The gelled electrolyte is simply added to enhance ion conductivity."

Please post any factual findings you have regarding your statement with a link to your research.

Lets cut to the chase here....

I am starting to see your personal pride issues.
Regardless of how you spin and try to explain away your initial statement it is still crystal clear. You do not need to deny it. You jumped to conclusions, made assumptions with Li-ion type batteries and got called on it.

I have read several of your posts in other threads, your earlier post is exactly in character for you. However in this case you were presented with the facts at which time you chose to explain away your post with items that were never really in question. Why should we take you seriously when you choose to ignore your first statement and solely concentrate on items that were never in question to begin with?

IT

Intermountain Trust · #5 (**permalink**) 12-30-2007, 09:41 PM

I previously stated that I ended up with a longer battery life then may bee I should have, this is based on using the math presented below.

Here is some loose math based on the facts from Mr. Buchmann's website
If you optimally get 1000 charging cycles from a Li-ion type battery and you plugged it in twice a day to charge you should end up with approximately 1 year 4 months of life from your battery. as stated this is not exact and is based on perfect conditions.

I personally ended up with 1 year 11 months from my latest battery before it started to show the effects from aging, however i still did not have to replace the battery. this is a full 7 months longer than the optimum life should have been if you charge just twice a day. in other words i ended up with approximately 210 extra days over the optimum as stated above. So what did I do different?

My personal experience before this was to only get approximately 1 year of life from a phone battery. As i learned more about batteries i surmised that changing one thing could end up giving a longer battery life. This change was to leave it plugged in while i talked on it instead of unplugging every time it reached a full charge. This led to not plugging it in as often hence supposedly using fewer charging cycles and keeping the battery at a full charge as recommended. This change in phone charging habits may have led to a longer life by not using up so many of the valuable charging cycles from the battery but there is no scientific data to prove this.

Granted I could have had the increased life simply because of advancements in technology but with the aging process disability that is involved with the Li-ion type battery I apparently did not decrease the life of the battery by doing this either. The fact is i am still using the phone as an emergency backup with the original battery it came with. As of now it is 27 months old from the time i purchased it, this time line does not include the aging from when the battery was made at the factory.

The normal disclaimer "Your mileage may vary" is in effect here.

And lets be perfectly clear about this I am in no way recommending that anyone else do what i have done. I am simply wondering if anyone else has tried this or something similar and what is your synopsis of what you noticed.

I am looking for some credible facts to either prove or disprove this observation from my experience, if you know of any please post it here.

IT

canospinach · #6 (**permalink**) 12-31-2007, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intermountain Trust

It seems the below statement is one you would prefer to ignore.

The fact is if you "drain your battery dead then fully recharge" you will kill a Li-ion type battery in short order this is a matter of fact. Frankly you would have had possibly thousands of individuals doing just this and killing their batteries prematurely. If you have any facts to the contrary please post them with a link to your research.

Nothing was taken for granted, misunderstood or taken out of context. You simply prefer to ignore what you had previously stated breaking down a post and explain it away so as to make it appear you knew what you were talking about.

The fact there are only so many cycles is not in question nor has it been. If you optimally get 1000 charging cycles from a Li-ion type battery and you plugged it in twice a day to charge you would end up with approximately 1 year 4 months of life from your battery. I personally ended up with 1 year 11 months from my latest battery before it started to show the effects from aging but i still did not have to replace the battery, i simply replaced my phone at the 2 year mark. (There are some factors concerning this that i will make another post about.)

The below quote is from Mr. Isidor Buchmann website

"With gelled electrolyte added, what then is the difference between Li‑ion and Li‑ion polymer? Although the characteristics and performance of the two systems are very similar, the Li‑ion polymer is unique in that the solid electrolyte replaces the porous separator. The gelled electrolyte is simply added to enhance ion conductivity."

Please post any factual findings you have regarding your statement with a link to your research.

Lets cut to the chase here....

I am starting to see your personal pride issues.
Regardless of how you spin and try to explain away your initial statement it is still crystal clear. You do not need to deny it. You jumped to conclusions, made assumptions with Li-ion type batteries and got called on it.

I have read several of your posts in other threads, your earlier post is exactly in character for you. However in this case you were presented with the facts at which time you chose to explain away your post with items that were never really in question. Why should we take you seriously when you choose to ignore your first statement and solely concentrate on items that were never in question to begin with?

IT

Wow Intermountain Trust is this a thread about battery technologies or your personal forum to attack me?

I could have sworn the title was "Li-ion Type Battery's For Dummies And The Otherwise Misinformed" and not "Intermountain Trusts Personal Rant against CanoSpinach".

Again according to the forum rules a thread based on attacking another member would clearly be a violation. See #4

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wideawake

4. No Flaming anyone, we are all friends.

Just follow these few simple rules and enjoy!

I will not dignify your personal attacks with any response other than this.

I want you to know, its ok. I dont hold it against you.

jaak · #7 (**permalink**) 12-30-2007, 12:34 AM

Huh? What? So does the Mogul have real GPS or assisted GPS?

(just kidding)

Intermountain Trust · #8 (**permalink**) 12-30-2007, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaak

Huh? What? So does the Mogul have real GPS or assisted GPS?

(just kidding)

LMAO, thanks jaak i need that!!

rawr · #9 (**permalink**) 12-30-2007, 12:55 AM

Hi, I just found this thread here... It seems that a smartass "friend" of mine thought it would be amusing to use my computer and start trouble with my login here, I'd like to apologise and i'll remove the stupid posts made by my imposter. Sorry about that.

Lesson here is to always log out of your browser and computer when guests are over.

Intermountain Trust · #10 (**permalink**) 12-30-2007, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rawr

Hi, I just found this thread here... It seems that a smartass "friend" of mine thought it would be amusing to use my computer and start trouble with my login here, I'd like to apologise and i'll remove the stupid posts made by my imposter. Sorry about that.

Lesson here is to always log out of your browser and computer when guests are over.

LMAO, rawr no harm done i was finding it amusing your friend did not put up

much of a struggle.