Rom developers... the BT stack on the Touch works-

[willysp]

Originally Posted by TC1

While this might have been possible in the "old days" (and yes, I'm old enough to remember, lol), today's modern handsets process the radio and audio signals almost entirely in the digital domain, ie, the "signal" is just a bunch of numbers that are being manipulated using DSP algorithms like Fast-Fourier-Transforms. Digital electronics aren't as susceptible to manufacturing tolerance problems as analog circuits are. Digital chips either work or they don't, they don't "drift" due to minor variations in temperature, voltage, and other factors.

It is possible to get a bad batch of digital chips, but in that case they would have failed factory go/no-go testing. Infant mortalities (the chip fails shorty after being utilized by the consumer) would manifest themselves as inoperable units.

Yes - I'm familiar with the 'old days', too! (I've designed & constructed circuits using both tubes and IC's; and written LISP/SNOBOL/ALGOL programs and embedded assembly language drivers) Good days ... :=)

Perhaps the explanation is as simple as the fact that I'm more 'picky' and observant than some others, and work in a building with poor cell reception - which causes frequent switches to roaming, which made 2.16 an absolute phone-killer for me. And perhaps people with good BT experience haven't listened to the other end of calls with the Titan.

[jph8tr]

Originally Posted by winmobilelawyer

The WM6 Memory system is not a bug nor an issue. It's the fact that HTC released a WM6 device with only 64mb of RAM. You'll notice the touch is doing absolutely FINE with the "WM6 Memory Leak."

As for the new ROM, hopefully you guys won't have to add stuff from the new rom to this fix it up ROM! Maybe the new ROM will actually solve the problems without adding new ones!

Then why don't we make a WM device without a screen...end of battery life issues! The memory leak IS an issue. No previous WinCE/WM release that I'm aware of has ever had this issue. From the end users point of view, the differences between WM5 and WM6 is not that great (a bit more lipstick on the pig) and WM5 has no memory leak. I would expect the graphical enhancements of WM6 to use more ram but that's not an excuse for the OS to bleed out ram over time. Unless there's some absolute bottom limit that I'm unaware of, the devices with more memory will not run out of ram as fast, but without reboot will eventually run out. Personally, I would have no problem if my WM6 Mogul after loading had ~15mb to play in. The problem is that that number will continue to diminish over time till the OS can't shut down any more processes itself. Then it's "poke the hole" time.

I've gone over to the WM5 camp, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't hope (or even expect) that WM6's memory management can be fixed to function at least as well as previous WinCE releases.

[winmobilelawyer]

Originally Posted by willysp

You're confusing 2 different things. The amount of physical memory a device contains has no bearing on whether the OS and/or apps have a virtual memory "leak". If the Titan had 1GB of physical RAM and no changes to the OS, it would still have the same "leak" - would just not be as noticeable.

I know this isnt the thread to be having this conversation. But my point was that there is no leak that this is what WinMo6 was designed to do, and I believe it was designed that way because MS assumed the latest phons would be 96mb of ram or higher.

[dishe]

Originally Posted by jph8tr

Then why don't we make a WM device without a screen...end of battery life issues! The memory leak IS an issue. No previous WinCE/WM release that I'm aware of has ever had this issue. From the end users point of view, the differences between WM5 and WM6 is not that great (a bit more lipstick on the pig) and WM5 has no memory leak. I would expect the graphical enhancements of WM6 to use more ram but that's not an excuse for the OS to bleed out ram over time. Unless there's some absolute bottom limit that I'm unaware of, the devices with more memory will not run out of ram as fast, but without reboot will eventually run out. Personally, I would have no problem if my WM6 Mogul after loading had ~15mb to play in. The problem is that that number will continue to diminish over time till the OS can't shut down any more processes itself. Then it's "poke the hole" time.

I've gone over to the WM5 camp, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't hope (or even expect) that WM6's memory management can be fixed to function at least as well as previous WinCE releases.

LOL- see this is why we have so many angry mogul users... jph8tr, that's not how the "memory leak", as you call it, works. I don't know how many more times we can discuss this... there have been countless threads dedicated to it, yet I'm a sucker and I'll just say it again and again...

You're wrong- It does not just suck more memory over time for no reason! It caches a certain amount of information, so the "problem" is more apparent when you close a bunch of apps and notice that your memory hasn't been reclaimed yet.
However, if left to its own devices, I've seen my ram go from 11mb free to 18mb free, without doing anything other than just leaving it alone for an hour (eventually, it WILL give up the cached ram when it realizes it doesn't need it for anything at the moment).
So why will the ram drop when you're not running anything at all?
Well, whether you're aware of it or not, WM6 does have some tasks running in the background which use some memory (activesync, battery managment, tower negotiating, data connection, Bluetooth, alarms, etc), and the caching system will start to eat a bit of memory to make those processes run smoother.
It will NOT eat all your memory like a black hole over time as you describe it! The reason some of us have issues is that the 64MB that the mogul has leaves less than half available to the user in the end for applications. However, with 128mb, situations that would normally leave us with 3-4mb running would now leave us with 68mb.

[willysp]

Originally Posted by winmobilelawyer

I know this isnt the thread to be having this conversation. But my point was that there is no leak that this is what WinMo6 was designed to do, and I believe it was designed that way because MS assumed the latest phons would be 96mb of ram or higher.

Oh - so you're saying that it's not a memory leak, but that it's WM6 doing the normal caching that a virtual memory OS is designed to do? Perhaps ... I really don't know.

I haven't really experimented much with it (since my Titan normally gets soft resets often for other reasons), but I tend to disagree with that for the reason that I've had "out of memory" errors from the camera app only if my Titan has been running for awhile (days). If WM6 were just doing normal caching, it would release either the least recently used or oldest cached pages immediately to the camera app. Instead, it appears to think the cached memory is still actively allocated to a running process - i.e. either a mis-behaving app or an OS memory leak. Or maybe WM6 really needs more physical memory. Again, without the proper monitoring tools, I just don't know. I certainly speculate that if it's not a leak, then the problem will be worse with WM 6.1 when EVDO-A and (a)GPS are released since it's safe to assume WM 6.1 will be at least a bit more memory-hungry.

** Any WM developers out there that have access to process/memory monitoring tools in the SDK or at MSDN?

[jph8tr]

Originally Posted by winmobilelawyer

I know this isnt the thread to be having this conversation. But my point was that there is no leak that this is what WinMo6 was designed to do, and I believe it was designed that way because MS assumed the latest phons would be 96mb of ram or higher.

I could accept that M$ allowed WM6 to use more memory because that ASS-U-ME-D that the devices would have more RAM. That just means we have less RAM to use at start up. What I can't accept is a LEAK as a design feature. There is a flaw in WM6's memory management that doesn't recover all the memory used by various second party programs when they quit. For many users this will mean that they will eventually run out of RAM no matter how much RAM the system has. 128mb helps matters greatly, but it doesn't fix things at all.

WM5 phones generally start out with ~30mb and settle in at 20-24mb, WM6 starts at ~24mb and fall steadily to ~3 when a reboot is required.

Getting back to the ROM in this thread. Rock solid so far! Easily the best BT performance I've seen on my Mogul. The problem is my RAM is now at 5mb after last rebooting ~11:00PM last night.

[markgamber]

Originally Posted by dishe

LOL- see this is why we have so many angry mogul users... jph8tr, that's not how the "memory leak", as you call it, works. I don't know how many more times we can discuss this... there have been countless threads dedicated to it, yet I'm a sucker and I'll just say it again and again...

You're wrong- It does not just suck more memory over time for no reason! It caches a certain amount of information, so the "problem" is more apparent when you close a bunch of apps and notice that your memory hasn't been reclaimed yet.
However, if left to its own devices, I've seen my ram go from 11mb free to 18mb free, without doing anything other than just leaving it alone for an hour (eventually, it WILL give up the cached ram when it realizes it doesn't need it for anything at the moment).
So why will the ram drop when you're not running anything at all?
Well, whether you're aware of it or not, WM6 does have some tasks running in the background which use some memory (activesync, battery managment, tower negotiating, data connection, Bluetooth, alarms, etc), and the caching system will start to eat a bit of memory to make those processes run smoother.
It will NOT eat all your memory like a black hole over time as you describe it! The reason some of us have issues is that the 64MB that the mogul has leaves less than half available to the user in the end for applications. However, with 128mb, situations that would normally leave us with 3-4mb running would now leave us with 68mb.

To second this, the Mogul is NO different in this aspect than the T-Mobile MDA, which I had for well over a year. It exhibited the exact same behavior and that was mostly with WM5 which, despite popular misconceptions, is more or less the same as WM6. Further, if you set specific max cache values, as opposed to the default dynamic cache, memory usage appears more predictable. You don't do the system any favors by setting those values, however, and they can easily become counterproductive. This takes me back to the early Windows NT betas. Technically, you should have NO memory free at all times. Did you buy ram to not be used? Those first task managers showed no (or almost no) memory free. But people freaked out when they put 256mb of ram in their computer and saw zero bytes free, so Microsoft would omit cache values from the "free memory" count. That made people happy and today we're still stuck with some nearly meaningless, arbitrary value called "free memory". Sure, the Mogul could probably have done better with another 64mb, but I have yet to get a low memory warning and between iGuidance and Slingplayer, it's not for a lack of trying.

[dishe]

Originally Posted by jph8tr

I could accept that M$ allowed WM6 to use more memory because that ASS-U-ME-D that the devices would have more RAM. That just means we have less RAM to use at start up. What I can't accept is a LEAK as a design feature. There is a flaw in WM6's memory management that doesn't recover all the memory used by various second party programs when they quit. For many users this will mean that they will eventually run out of RAM no matter how much RAM the system has. 128mb helps matters greatly, but it doesn't fix things at all.

WM5 phones generally start out with ~30mb and settle in at 20-24mb, WM6 starts at ~24mb and fall steadily to ~3 when a reboot is required.

Getting back to the ROM in this thread. Rock solid so far! Easily the best BT performance I've seen on my Mogul. The problem is my RAM is now at 5mb after last rebooting ~11:00PM last night.

I wonder why I bother posting at all... ya know what? fine. you win. wm6 clearly sucks and we're all morons for even suggesting that you use it since it was clearly designed by monkeys, or possibly terrorists to mess with our social fabric.

Happy now? Go use your WM5 rom and stop bringing up the "leaks".

[jtrag]

Originally Posted by dishe

I wonder why I bother posting at all... ya know what? fine. you win. wm6 clearly sucks and we're all morons for even suggesting that you use it since it was clearly designed by monkeys, or possibly terrorists to mess with our social fabric.

Happy now? Go use your WM5 rom and stop bringing up the "leaks".

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dude... you have an attitude problem... but it's funny....

[TC1]

Originally Posted by dishe

I wonder why I bother posting at all... ya know what? fine. you win. wm6 clearly sucks and we're all morons for even suggesting that you use it since it was clearly designed by monkeys, or possibly terrorists to mess with our social fabric.

"OMG.... Chloe.... get Jack Bauer on the phone, NOW!"