one design problem with the evo

[BlackDynamite]

Originally Posted by gTen

First of all there weren't too many TP2 in stock all together..second of all the droid eris did not have a head to head battle..the Motorola Droid had a lot more advertising for it..so much they even lit up the droid all over Times Square...for it to be even it has to be released side by side like the TP and Diamond and have equal exposure.

It was a head to head battle. Just because HTC lost and you think you know the reason doesn't make it any less of a battle.

HTC could have advertised the Eris as much as they wanted to. They could have paid to light up Times Square if they wanted to. They chose not to.

And if Verizon helped out with some of the marketing on the Droid, there must have been a reason. If Verizon thought the Eris would sell more than the Droid, they would have marketed it as their flagship device. They chose the Droid, and it worked out well for them.

So again, the facts speak for themselves. There were 2 devices with similar functionality, sitting right next to each other in most Verizon stores. The more expensive device sold a ton more- and it had a keyboard. Hopefully HTC gets the message that a lot of people actually do want a keyboard. Even a crappy keyboard like the Droid's is better than nothing. And again, I saw several commercials where they mention the fact that the Droid has a keyboard. I have a friend who chose a Droid over the Nexus One (and left T-Mobile in the process, where he had been using a G1) because it had a keyboard.

[tokuzumi]

Originally Posted by SaltyDawg

It was a head to head battle. Just because HTC lost and you think you know the reason doesn't make it any less of a battle.

It was not a head to head battle. They were released at about the same time. But one was advertised. One wasn't. Guess which one sold more?

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with the 3 year marketing campaign of the iPhone. All I'm saying is marketing sold millions of iPhones. Marketing sold millions of Droids. iPhone and Droid were given halo phone status on AT&T and Verizon, respectively. Droid Eris was not marketed anywhere near the amount of the Droid, and sold much fewer units. If the Droid was given generic marketing from Verizon, and the Eris was given the marketing campaign of the Droid, you would see a huge increase in the number of Eris sales, compared to sales of the Droid.

[BlackDynamite]

Originally Posted by tokuzumi

It was not a head to head battle. They were released at about the same time. But one was advertised. One wasn't. Guess which one sold more?

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with the 3 year marketing campaign of the iPhone. All I'm saying is marketing sold millions of iPhones. Marketing sold millions of Droids. iPhone and Droid were given halo phone status on AT&T and Verizon, respectively. Droid Eris was not marketed anywhere near the amount of the Droid, and sold much fewer units. If the Droid was given generic marketing from Verizon, and the Eris was given the marketing campaign of the Droid, you would see a huge increase in the number of Eris sales, compared to sales of the Droid.

So hold on, you're saying it wasn't a battle just because the ass kicking the Eris took was so bad? I have news for you- HTC was in fact hoping and trying to sell phones to the same exact market that Motorola was. Just because Motorola did a better job than HTC doesn't mean there was no battle. There was a battle. Motorola just won in epic fashion.

And you keep bringing up the marketing point- why? Again, the fact that Verizon chose the Droid over the Eris as the flagship device, and marketed it as such, just goes to show that Verizon liked that device better and thought it would sell more.

There is just no denying these facts- the Droid and the Eris were released at about the same time, they have similar functionality, similar OS, run the same apps, sit right next to each other in the stores, and have a significant difference in price. The more expensive one sold a ton more- and it also marketed the fact that it has a keyboard while other devices don't.

So that brings us full circle... HTC aparently dropped keyboards in a bid to imitate the iPhone because the iPhone was so successful (marketing aside). Now HTC got destroyed in a head to head battle with a more expensive device that runs the same OS- and has a keyboard.

Hopefully HTC will take notice and understand that a lot of people actually do want a keyboard.

[tokuzumi]

Originally Posted by SaltyDawg

So hold on, you're saying it wasn't a battle just because the ass kicking the Eris took was so bad? I have news for you- HTC was in fact hoping and trying to sell phones to the same exact market that Motorola was. Just because Motorola did a better job than HTC doesn't mean there was no battle. There was a battle. Motorola just won in epic fashion.

And you keep bringing up the marketing point- why? Again, the fact that Verizon chose the Droid over the Eris as the flagship device, and marketed it as such, just goes to show that Verizon liked that device better and thought it would sell more.

There is just no denying these facts- the Droid and the Eris were released at about the same time, they have similar functionality, similar OS, run the same apps, sit right next to each other in the stores, and have a significant difference in price. The more expensive one sold a ton more- and it also marketed the fact that it has a keyboard while other devices don't.

So that brings us full circle... HTC aparently dropped keyboards in a bid to imitate the iPhone because the iPhone was so successful (marketing aside). Now HTC got destroyed in a head to head battle with a more expensive device that runs the same OS- and has a keyboard.

Hopefully HTC will take notice and understand that a lot of people actually do want a keyboard.

The reason to bring up marketing is key. If you don't advertise, you don't sell. Sure there are cases where word of mouth makes something extremely popular, but if you have a product to sell, and you don't put the money into advertising, you don't sell a product, regardless of the price. People buy what they know about. If I wasn't on this site all the time, or sites like PhoneDog, PocketNow, etc, I wouldn't know squat about the Eris, or what it does. And those BS "YOU" commercials by HTC don't tell you much about what their phones do. They mainly advertise Sense, despite not mentioning it by name in their ads. People knew about the droid, and came in to see it. Verizon sales people were most likely given more incentives to sell the Droid. If Verizon sales reps are like most other retail sales folks, they get commission. If they get more commission to sell the Droid, which phone would they show a customer?

[BlackDynamite]

Originally Posted by tokuzumi

The reason to bring up marketing is key. If you don't advertise, you don't sell. Sure there are cases where word of mouth makes something extremely popular, but if you have a product to sell, and you don't put the money into advertising, you don't sell a product, regardless of the price. People buy what they know about. If I wasn't on this site all the time, or sites like PhoneDog, PocketNow, etc, I wouldn't know squat about the Eris, or what it does. And those BS "YOU" commercials by HTC don't tell you much about what their phones do. They mainly advertise Sense, despite not mentioning it by name in their ads. People knew about the droid, and came in to see it. Verizon sales people were most likely given more incentives to sell the Droid. If Verizon sales reps are like most other retail sales folks, they get commission. If they get more commission to sell the Droid, which phone would they show a customer?

And I have some points to make regarding all of that...,

#1: Just because Motorola won the battle, doesn't mean there wasn't one. Just because you think you know why HTC lost the battle, doesn't mean there wasn't one.

#2: So if it is all based on marketing, and that is all that matters, then HTC might as well make a device with a keyboard. Everyone will buy it anyway if they advertise it. They should have never stopped making devices with keyboards.

#3: The Droid was marketed more than the Eris because Verizon knew it was a better phone. Period. If they thought the Eris was a better phone, than you would have seen it marketed like it was Verizon's flagship device.

#4: Having a keyboard was absolutely marketed in several Droid commercials. So maybe a part of the reason it was marketed so heavily was BECAUSE it had a keyboard. I remember the first Droid commercial I ever saw had a bunch of don'ts for other devices and does for the Droid- with a keyboard being one of the first things on the list. So they knew people cared about it and that is why they marketed it as such.

#5: HTC was free to advertise as much and however they wanted. Nobody stopped them from making a bunch of commercials and flooding the airwaves with them. Just because they didn't fight a good enough fight for your liking, doesn't mean there was no battle. There was a battle. HTC just got totally destroyed in epic fashion.

#6: The Droid was and still is sitting right next to the Eris in just about every Verizon store. Anyone that came to look at a Droid will see a cheaper device called a "Droid Eris" sitting right next to it. And it runs all the same apps, has the same OS, and the same functionality- even has a similar name. Yet people are still choosing the Droid and paying more. That has to be a major eye opener for HTC.

#7: If HTC wants Verizon or any other carrier to market their phones like a flagship model (which is what Verizon did with the Droid) then they need to make the best phones. They need to give Verizon a good reason to choose the HTC model as the flagship model. Motorola did that. HTC did not. Every single feature on the Eris can be found on the Droid (except for the Sense UI). The keyboard on the Droid can not be found on the Eris.

#8: I guarantee you they thought not having a keyboard was a plus for the Eris. There is no way they went out of their way to drop keyboards, after making the best keyboard ever on a phone (TP2), if they didn't think it was a plus to not have a keyboard. It had to be a real eye opener when they got destroyed by a more expensive device with the same functionality that had a keyboard.

All of that had to be a major eye opener for HTC. As it turns out, a lot of people actually do want a device with a keyboard.

[tokuzumi]

Originally Posted by SaltyDawg

And I have some points to make regarding all of that...,

#1: Just because Motorola won the battle, doesn't mean there wasn't one. Just because you think you know why HTC lost the battle, doesn't mean there wasn't one.

#2: So if it is all based on marketing, and that is all that matters, then HTC might as well make a device with a keyboard. Everyone will buy it anyway if they advertise it. They should have never stopped making devices with keyboards.

#3: The Droid was marketed more than the Eris because Verizon knew it was a better phone. Period. If they thought the Eris was a better phone, than you would have seen it marketed like it was Verizon's flagship device.

#4: Having a keyboard was absolutely marketed in several Droid commercials. So maybe a part of the reason it was marketed so heavily was BECAUSE it had a keyboard. I remember the first Droid commercial I ever saw had a bunch of don'ts for other devices and does for the Droid- with a keyboard being one of the first things on the list. So they knew people cared about it and that is why they marketed it as such.

#5: HTC was free to advertise as much and however they wanted. Nobody stopped them from making a bunch of commercials and flooding the airwaves with them. Just because they didn't fight a good enough fight for your liking, doesn't mean there was no battle. There was a battle. HTC just got totally destroyed in epic fashion.

#6: The Droid was and still is sitting right next to the Eris in just about every Verizon store. Anyone that came to look at a Droid will see a cheaper device called a "Droid Eris" sitting right next to it. And it runs all the same apps, has the same OS, and the same functionality- even has a similar name. Yet people are still choosing the Droid and paying more. That has to be a major eye opener for HTC.

#7: If HTC wants Verizon or any other carrier to market their phones like a flagship model (which is what Verizon did with the Droid) then they need to make the best phones. They need to give Verizon a good reason to choose the HTC model as the flagship model. Motorola did that. HTC did not. Every single feature on the Eris can be found on the Droid (except for the Sense UI). The keyboard on the Droid can not be found on the Eris.

#8: I guarantee you they thought not having a keyboard was a plus for the Eris. There is no way they went out of their way to drop keyboards, after making the best keyboard ever on a phone (TP2), if they didn't think it was a plus to not have a keyboard. It had to be a real eye opener when they got destroyed by a more expensive device with the same functionality that had a keyboard.

All of that had to be a major eye opener for HTC. As it turns out, a lot of people actually do want a device with a keyboard.

#1 Just because two phones are for sale at the same time, doesn't mean they are competiting against each other.

#2 If a keyboard is all a phone needs to sell a phone, tell that to apple. (I am not an apple leg-humper, but your logic doesn't hold up in that regard)

#3 Which was my point exactly from the beginning

#4 if the keyboard was marketed so heavily, why does the robot use the onscreen keyboard?

#5 My point was the marketing campaign for the Eris was smaller, thus smaller sales.

#6 if you think android 1.5 on the Eris and 2.0 (now 2.1) on the droid are the same, you are sorely mistaken. Google Nav (with voice commands), Buzz only work on 2.X devices. Apps like Urban Spoon only work on 2.X devices. Even the app my company released only works on 1.6+ devices. Eris/Hero would be SOL on that one. 1.5 is being tossed to the way-side on app development. Multiple Gmail account support on 2.X....it goes on and on.

#7 Wasn't motorola in trouble in the phone market before the Droid's release? Motorola needed a home-run with this phone, and they swung for the fences. HTC makes about every device on cell phone shelves. The Eris is just a re-baged Hero, which sold extremely well in Europe. HTC didn't need to sell many to be profitable. Plus, HTC's game plan seems to be release something, and the next day, show spoilers to the next generation handset.

#8 In the future, Android will become a "touch-less" OS. 2.1 has text-to-speech everything, and it will only get better, and more intuitive. You will tell your phone what to do, which you have mentioned is not convenient for you, and that's fine. There will always be a phone with a keyboard. But voice commands will become a great convenience for the masses, who would see a benefit from having an interactive device.

[BlackDynamite]

Originally Posted by tokuzumi

#1 Just because two phones are for sale at the same time, doesn't mean they are competiting against each other.

#2 If a keyboard is all a phone needs to sell a phone, tell that to apple. (I am not an apple leg-humper, but your logic doesn't hold up in that regard)

#3 Which was my point exactly from the beginning

#4 if the keyboard was marketed so heavily, why does the robot use the onscreen keyboard?

#5 My point was the marketing campaign for the Eris was smaller, thus smaller sales.

#6 if you think android 1.5 on the Eris and 2.0 (now 2.1) on the droid are the same, you are sorely mistaken. Google Nav (with voice commands), Buzz only work on 2.X devices. Apps like Urban Spoon only work on 2.X devices. Even the app my company released only works on 1.6+ devices. Eris/Hero would be SOL on that one. 1.5 is being tossed to the way-side on app development. Multiple Gmail account support on 2.X....it goes on and on.

#7 Wasn't motorola in trouble in the phone market before the Droid's release? Motorola needed a home-run with this phone, and they swung for the fences. HTC makes about every device on cell phone shelves. The Eris is just a re-baged Hero, which sold extremely well in Europe. HTC didn't need to sell many to be profitable. Plus, HTC's game plan seems to be release something, and the next day, show spoilers to the next generation handset.

#8 In the future, Android will become a "touch-less" OS. 2.1 has text-to-speech everything, and it will only get better, and more intuitive. You will tell your phone what to do, which you have mentioned is not convenient for you, and that's fine. There will always be a phone with a keyboard. But voice commands will become a great convenience for the masses, who would see a benefit from having an interactive device.

#1: Uh, yes it does. If two phones- especially smartphones that run the same OS and have similar specs, are for sale at the same time, from the same carrier, and made by different manufacturers, then they absolutely ARE competing against each other. The average person is not going to buy both of them. You think HTC and/or Motorola is only making phones just so they can say they did? Heck no, they are trying to sell them. This might be the biggest fundemantal flaw in your argument. The Droid and Droid Eris absolutely ARE competing against each other for sales, and I don't see how anyone can even deny that.

#2: A keyboard is not ALL a phone needs to have sales- please show me where I ever implied that. However, I did say that a lot of people want a keyboard. And you can bet of there was an iPhone that had a keyboard, and it sold a lot more than the regular iPhone- even though it cost a lot more, then yes, I would absolutely say the keyboard was probably the biggest factor. You seem to be missing the fact that the Droid and Droid Eris are pretty similar phones- same OS, same apps, similar specs, and even similar names. If people paid extra for the one with a keyboard- and the fact that it has a keyboard was heavily marketed, then yes, I think having a keyboard was absolutely one of the reasons why it sold a lot more.

#3: What was your point from the beginning? That Verizon liked the Droid better and that's why they marketed it more? You're not making sense here. Verizon specifically mentions the keyboard in several Droid commercials, so clearly that is one of the reasons they liked it better.

#4: The robot uses the on screen keyboard and the real keyboard. They are showing the device does both. You act like they only use the on screen keyboard or something. Here is one example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc57FHMAuus
I see the robot typing on a keyboard in that commercial, and several others, all the time.

#5: And why was the marketing campaig smaller? If marketing is ALL there is to sales, then why was the marketing campaign smaller? You think HTC just decided to not sell as many devices? More like Verizon chose which one they thought would sell the best, and then they marketed it as their flagship device. So why did Verizon like the Droid better? Here is the first Droid commercial to hit the market, notice the very first line in the commercial is dissing the iPhone for not having a keyboard, and praising that the Droid does:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnaAQwGcBks

#6: The Eris was released in the 4th quarter of 2009. At the time of its release, they announced that there would be an OS upgrade in Q1 2010. So the fact that the Droid had a newer OS wasn't even a consideration for most people.

#7: I know it is common around here to say the Eris is just a "re-badged hero" or whatever, and it is true for the most part. But it is a different device with slightly different specs. See here:
http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=pdacomp...=2080&id2=1966
Also, I don't think Motorola was in as much trouble as you say. Maybe in the smartphone arena, but their dumbphones were selling like crazy before the Droid. The RAZR is like the standard for all dumbphones. It doesn't matter though, because if what you say is true, and Motorola really was swinging for the fences, then the fact that they put a keyboard on their device and actually hit the home run with it should make HTC take notice.

#8: Voice commands are great when you are doing something like driving. But it is not at all practical for use in a business environment. Can you imagine a classroom or an an office meeting where everyone is multitasking on their phone and it only works with voice commands? LOL, Android will never only be a touchless OS. It may very well have an option to use voice commands that a lot of people like in certain instances, but it will always have an option to use it quietly as well.

[brownhornet]

Man no matter how logical you seem to everyone else this dude will just find something else to argue about... save yourself the trouble.

[BlackDynamite]

Originally Posted by brownhornet

Man no matter how logical you seem to everyone else this dude will just find something else to argue about... save yourself the trouble.

Find something else to argue about? LOL, I am arguing the same thing here- I want a keyboard and plenty of others do too. In fact, the hottest selling smartphone in the USA not named an iPhone has a keyboard.

[tokuzumi]

Originally Posted by SaltyDawg

#1: Uh, yes it does. If two phones- especially smartphones that run the same OS and have similar specs, are for sale at the same time, from the same carrier, and made by different manufacturers, then they absolutely ARE competing against each other. The average person is not going to buy both of them. You think HTC and/or Motorola is only making phones just so they can say they did? Heck no, they are trying to sell them. This might be the biggest fundemantal flaw in your argument. The Droid and Droid Eris absolutely ARE competing against each other for sales, and I don't see how anyone can even deny that.

#2: A keyboard is not ALL a phone needs to have sales- please show me where I ever implied that. However, I did say that a lot of people want a keyboard. And you can bet of there was an iPhone that had a keyboard, and it sold a lot more than the regular iPhone- even though it cost a lot more, then yes, I would absolutely say the keyboard was probably the biggest factor. You seem to be missing the fact that the Droid and Droid Eris are pretty similar phones- same OS, same apps, similar specs, and even similar names. If people paid extra for the one with a keyboard- and the fact that it has a keyboard was heavily marketed, then yes, I think having a keyboard was absolutely one of the reasons why it sold a lot more.

#3: What was your point from the beginning? That Verizon liked the Droid better and that's why they marketed it more? You're not making sense here. Verizon specifically mentions the keyboard in several Droid commercials, so clearly that is one of the reasons they liked it better.

#4: The robot uses the on screen keyboard and the real keyboard. They are showing the device does both. You act like they only use the on screen keyboard or something. Here is one example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc57FHMAuus
I see the robot typing on a keyboard in that commercial, and several others, all the time.

#5: And why was the marketing campaig smaller? If marketing is ALL there is to sales, then why was the marketing campaign smaller? You think HTC just decided to not sell as many devices? More like Verizon chose which one they thought would sell the best, and then they marketed it as their flagship device. So why did Verizon like the Droid better? Here is the first Droid commercial to hit the market, notice the very first line in the commercial is dissing the iPhone for not having a keyboard, and praising that the Droid does:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnaAQwGcBks

#6: The Eris was released in the 4th quarter of 2009. At the time of its release, they announced that there would be an OS upgrade in Q1 2010. So the fact that the Droid had a newer OS wasn't even a consideration for most people.

#7: I know it is common around here to say the Eris is just a "re-badged hero" or whatever, and it is true for the most part. But it is a different device with slightly different specs. See here:
http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=pdacomp...=2080&id2=1966
Also, I don't think Motorola was in as much trouble as you say. Maybe in the smartphone arena, but their dumbphones were selling like crazy before the Droid. The RAZR is like the standard for all dumbphones. It doesn't matter though, because if what you say is true, and Motorola really was swinging for the fences, then the fact that they put a keyboard on their device and actually hit the home run with it should make HTC take notice.

#8: Voice commands are great when you are doing something like driving. But it is not at all practical for use in a business environment. Can you imagine a classroom or an an office meeting where everyone is multitasking on their phone and it only works with voice commands? LOL, Android will never only be a touchless OS. It may very well have an option to use voice commands that a lot of people like in certain instances, but it will always have an option to use it quietly as well.

While you prefer a keyboard, the droid doesn't deliver when it comes to ease of use on the keyboard. My cousin hates it, John from DroidDog stopped using it, and these folks:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/18158..._droid_ii.html
And a humorous analogy of what it's like to use the Droid's keyboard:
http://www.rinish.com/component/opti...emid,78/p,165/

Also, HTCs decision to remove the keyboards from their phones are two fold: One, copy a design that works (millions of iPhone users can't be wrong, right ) Plus, talk to people who use software keyboards. The hero has fantastic spelling correction. Sometimes, too good. I type as fast, or faster on my hero, than I ever did on my mogul or treo.
Two, warranty issues. I used a mogul for about 4 months. I went through 3 of them. The keyboard would either not work, or 3 or 4 of the same characters would shoot out, meaning I'd have to backspace like a mo-fo. Also, I saw numerous reports on this board of touch pro keyboards going out on a regular basis. A company will spend less money on repairs for a keyboard-less phone. That is why RIM went to a optical-type trackball design, and you are seeing the legend and the incredible with optical trackballs.

Like I said from the beginning; if the Eris had more marketing/advertising dollars spent on what the device could do,by both Verizon and/or HTC, not some vanilla Verizon BOGO commercial, about how it would fit into someone's life, it would sell better. It's the fault of HTC and Verizon together. Verizon and Motorola worked together on the droid ads, so why couldn't HTC do something as well?

I like how you still make it sound like android 1.5 and 2.X are the same. People want new now. Not wait. If you could choose to have the newest thing now, vs waiting 3-6 months, what would you do?

Taken from wikipedia:
Motorola's handset division recorded a loss of $1.2 billion in the fourth quarter of 2007, while the company as a whole earned $100 million during that quarter.[11] It lost several key executives to rivals[12] and the web site TrustedReviews has called the company's products repetitive and uninnovative.[13] Motorola laid off 3,500 workers in January 2008[14], followed by a further 4,000 job cuts in June[15] and another 20% cut of its research division a few days later.[16] In July 2008, a large number of executives left Motorola to work on Apple Inc.'s iPhone.[17] The company's handset division was also put on offer for sale.[18] In July 2008, analyst Mark McKechnie from American Technology Research said that Motorola "would be lucky to fetch $500 million" for selling its handset business and analyst Richard Windsor said that Motorola might have to pay someone to take the division off the company and that the company may even exit the handset market altogether.[19] Its global market share has been on the decline; from 18.4% of the market in 2007, it had a share of just 6.0% by Q1 2009 but at last Motorola scored a profit of $26 million in Q2 and showed increase of 12% in stocks first time after lose in many quarters.

Motorola was not in the best shape (their phone division) prior to the release of the Droid, losing 66% of their market share.

Unless I'm missing something, I don't see any differences in the Hero vs the Eris in your link, other than the SAR value (head and body). How are they slightly different? And they are 15 grams apart in weight, which is half an ounce, or not noticable.