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File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
If you want to get heard by Verizon, filing a complaint with FTC, unfortunately, may be the only recourse to getVerizon's attention. File a complaint with SEC, it literilly takes 5 minutes to do and will definitely have a greater impact than complaining on any forum.
Here is the link: https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/ What Verizon is practicing is completely against fair trade practices. Whilst Samsung advertizes the i910 on their websit as having GPS, Verizon decided to lock it or operate it only their software. We the consumer paid for the phone as it was being sold by Samsung. If the GPS was not going to be available on i910 then Samsung could have simply omitted it just like they did for the video conferencing camera on their i900 product but they did not. So legally we the consumer paid for the GPS but cannot use it unless we purchase the VZnavigator. I am also throwing down this gauntlet to any budding lawyers who may be intrested in filing a class action lawsuit on behalf of the consumers. Update: I posted this same message on the Verizon site and it was taken down within 10 minutes after I had received a very discouraging response from a user that this was a waste of time; seems more like I hit a sore nerve! I am going to post this on other websites but any user here is more than welcome to cut and paste on other forums in the of hope mobilizing the Omina i910 users to achieve critical mass. |
Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
Verizon didn't become the biggest and the best network without a core of capable Lawyers...
this sounds like it may cause a few ripples in the water but ultimately the fact that the GPS is locked doesn't mean it does not have GPS...just because people don't want to pay 10 bucks a month for VZ Navigator isn't really a foundation for a lawsuit... They will eventually release an official ROM that unlocks the GPS as they did with the XV6800... |
Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
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You didn't buy the phone from the Samsung Website. You bought the phone from the VERIZON website. The Verizon website does not advertise the GPS to work with other programs. Since the phone is "Verizon Branded" they have the right to modify it as they see fit. sux... but completely legal |
Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
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exactly what i was about to post..... guys the only way to get gps to work is either use verzions crappy software or flash it. of course your taking the rsik with flashing but if you really want full gps then its worth the risk |
Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
I did consider the fact the GPS is not really locked but works with VZN. However, that is the only application it is allowed to works with that is against fair trade.
It is true the we bought the Phone from Verizon as in the US Verizon is the only re-seller. The same transaction can also be initiated from Samsung's Omina website. Anyone reading the description of the phone is duped into thinking they are also buying the GPS functionality. The question is not if GPS works but who owns it |
Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
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if ur merely saying it is against fair trade because you are forced to pay for VZ Navigator then this is a waste of time, but if there is some language somewhere stating "that if a phone is advertised with GPS then it must be allowed to be used with any and all GPS software" then I think ur idea would be better received... All of Verizon's WinMo phones have been sold the same way for the past couple years, with the GPS locked to serve VZ Navigator, this is NOT a new issue, a phone sold with Verizon's badge belongs to verizon, when there is a problem u send the phone to Verizon not Samsung...GPS is not a stand alone program/feature created by Samsung and sold to Verizon, it is built into the phone and Owned and operated by Verizon Wireless... We may not like it and it may not seem fair...but its Legal...good luck |
Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
I do feel for the people that are upset about the GPS lock, but as stated above, it is legal and I am not really sure the OP will result in anything substantial. It is kinds like arguing that Burger King is broiling the patty you want fried....you know what your getting from them when you walk in. Just because AT&T has open GPS doesn't mean VZW will.
All that aside though, this is also either currently or will soon be a moot point for most. VZW has already promised to unlock the GPS in the first half of 2009 (we'll see, should be soon if they do it), but even if they don't, there are ROM chefs out there that are already releasing fully operational GPS ROMs (like my Omnia running WM6.5 and has GPS working). Good luck, and I would never discourage anyone from speaking out on what they think is right, but I really think it won't amount to much. |
Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
lol.. The phone DOES have GPS, no? Locking it is up to Verizon... But they are legally in the right...
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Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
Are they legally in the right? That is the question. GPS is a free service, if you purchase a TomTom then you would expect to be able to access GPS. You don't have to pay a monthly subscription fee to access the satellite signals, which is exactly what VZW is doing. True the phones are Verizon branded, but we did purchase the phone. If we were say renting the phone from them then I could see them locking features (they still own the phone), but if you paid for your phone then it should come with all of the features that are advertised from the manufacturer.
Like Syrguy said there should be a ROM update from VZW and in any case there are already unlocked ROMs out there, so who cares about VZW's update! |
Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
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Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
First of all Verizon are not in the right. They subsidized the phone for their benefit not ours so that argument does not hold.
Secondly, even if they do decide to "unlock" the GPS down the road depending on when they do it (christmas comes to mind) it may be a bit too late as new phones will start hitting the market and guess what, we will be going down this road once more cursing Verizon for blocking GPS on the new phones. This is the time to take a stand and show our dissatisfaction through the only means they will understand. Filing the complaint with FTC literally takes 5 minutes and we have noting to lose except 5 minutes! https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/ |
Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
If you want to make a stand go to another carrier that will have them think twice if enough people leave their service
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Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
Just my two cents...
I don't understand why people are willing to go through all of this trouble, is it just to complain? For a company that has roughly 86 million customer, they arnt going to flinch if even a million of them file a complaint, especially if complaint is as petty as charging for a service that is offered, although it must be purchased, the box advertises GPS and GPS is available. When it comes down to it, the foundation of this complaint is just a pile of sand. The solution is out there, thanks to hard work of the developers. Why not spend the five minutes it would take to file a complaint and flash a GPS-enabled ROM to your phone? It takes just as much effort and you get an instant result. Then you can make a useful post and give some much needed feedback. If just half of the effort wasted on complaining was put toward assisting all the developers here, if only to give feedback, then the developer's community will prosper. Sorry if I offended anyone with my above statement, trying to rally others behind a petty complaint plucks a nerve. As I first stated, it's only my two cents. |
Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
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Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
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Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
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You do know carriers do not make money off the devices, right? I'm guessing you don't know that. |
Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
If you use your gps alot it might not even be that bad of a deal at ten dollars a month considering the amount of data needed to reproduce the map every time you move. its really acurate. I think it should be unlocked also and mine is but for one thing that kind of gps survice is probley going to cost you money one way or another. YOu really do not know why its not released yet. My battery drains in about two hours with gps now. It did not with navagater. Kinda pointless for hiking any way without batery backups. To be honest i really could care less. I knew when i bought it that it was locked and am very happy right now i got mine unlocked. YOu should start a patition thanking everybody that made it possible to get through unlocking the phone and getting you free goodies hacks tips tricks and all aroun help when you have a problem. I do want a more stable base rom to go off of but Its always going to be how much money can a company mak in profets that will drive them. You cant blame verizon its ther jobs. I depend on my phone and actulally so ffar think verizon is a pretty good company.
Look at our econimy no one is spending money. People are loosing ther jobs. Suffering is happing in your own back yard. And a patition to maybe rais my phone bill in an inderect way. no thanks. They will get there money one way or another. This issue is such a wast of energy. Everyone has the right to want to get paid for what they do. Nothing in life is free. |
Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
It's GPS-capable. Anyone who is familiar with Verizon knows that you have to subscribe to the service to use it. Kinda like messaging...the phones are capable of SMS and MMS but you have to pay to use the service. This is not a stand-alone GPS product. It's a phone...serviced through Verizon.
I agree with what has already been said...filing a complaint isn't going to do much good. If you don't like the way they service their phones/customers then you go elsewhere. Losing massive amounts of dedicated customers is going to have more effect than a complaint about something which will change nothing. You can either change your phone so it has the capabilities you want it to have, you can pay for the service, or you can change your provider. These are your options. And of course...you can complain. But that's about like cutting the thumb of your hand and expecting the other four fingers to care. |
Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
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Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
Whoa ... sueing Verizon for restraint of trade because their locked GPS prevents other software
vendors from using the GPS service? Well, honestly I hope you have more cash to spend on legal bills then Verizon spends on its lawyers. However with that said I will let you in on a secret that has the cell industry on its heels. It is section 255 of the FCC code. Esentially, if you want VZ to unlock the GPS you will need to find a blind VZ customer that is willing to put their name on a complaint against VZ, probably not as hard to find as you may think. In a nutshell, section 255 of the FCC code and section 504 of the Federal rehabilitation act of 1973 both require handsets sold through U.S. carriers to be accessible to the disabled (specifically the blind in this case). Stay with me on this one. Both Samsung and HTC Windows Mobile handsets are normally accessible through use of text to speach software so that itself is not an issue. However the crinkle is that the VZ Nav/TeleNav software does not work with the screen readers (text to speach) software that blind folks use. That is not a problem on handsets with unlocked GPS since blind folks merely install speach compatible GPS software (like Mobile Geo from www.codefactory.es) and away they go enjoying GPS on their handsets. Now the big problem is that a locked GPS prevents this and precludes a blind person from utilizing all the features that were advertised for their handsets and that is a violation of the above acts. A complaint on this basis would force Verizon to do one of two things: either completely rewrite the VZ Nav software to make it screen reader compatible or simply unlock the GPS to allow the installation of screen reader friendly GPS software. Which one do you think they would do? If any of you are laughing at this possibbility, you can do some research and find out that every U.S. carrier has spent 7 and 8 figures to settle complaints in this line of reasoning. Ever wonder why Microsoft now includes Voice Command standard on all U.S. installs of Windows Mobile? Yep, to satisfy accessibility requirements. Now to bring this specifically down to Verizon, ever wonder why VZ reintroduced the Moto Q with the Talks screen reader installed .. yep you guessed it. Also ever wonder why VZ offered its cheaper LG phones (and some other brands too) with speach output? Yep you guessed it too. Still not convinced? Then Google the lawsuit brought by Dr. Day against Verizon that really started that ball rolling. hth Frank |
Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
So what about all of the other advertised features that a blind person could not use?
The flashlight, video player, widgets, Picture and Video Messaging, Bubble Breaker Game, Finger Mouse? A blind person would not be able to use many or all of those "advertised features". So why would verizon be forced to make the GPS available to blind people, but not the other stuff? If your argument is indeed true, then if they cannot make these other features available to the blind (how would you make video messaging available to a blind person?) then they might just have to remove these other "features" from our phones so they would be fair and in compliance with your interpretation of the FCC code. Not trying to be negative, just trying to think this through. What are your thoughts? |
Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
You omitted one important part of fcc section 255. The technology must be readily available. This means that the technology must have already been developed or not costly to research and develop. Let's face it, how many people with a vision impairment, we have to be politically correct, have a legitimate need for turn by turn traffic direction. I say that because this complaint is about locking the gps so that third party applications, that are intended for turn by turn directions, are blocked on the stock rom.
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Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
Sorry, but you don't have any clue what the real situation is. The technology for turn by turn directions for the blind already exists. It is called Mobile Geo (http://codefactory.es) and is used by thousands of blind folks every day on Windows Mobile devices with unlocked GPS. In fact that is the program I us almost on a daily basis to navigate to work, school and other places. Yes, in case you are wondering I am totally blind myself, not visually impaired as you bemused, that is a different thing. The very reason I have to carry my older 8925 Tilt is the the GPS is unlocked and I can run my GPS software (Mobile Geo) and make use of the turn by turn directions. If VZ ever unlocked the GPs in my Touch Pro I could toss the Tilt on the trash heap and just install Mobile Geo on the Touch Pro. Instead VZ persists in marketing a product that openly violates section 255 because as you state the technology must already exist, which it does, in the form of GPS guidance software for the blind. This is why the items mentioned by the previous poster (video messageing, flashlite) would not be a factor in this line of reasoning because those technologies do not currently exist for the blind; as opposed technologies that do like Bubblebreaker style games and of course the GPS we are speaking about. I am really very shocked that you aren't aware that many blind folks use GPS on Windows Mobile devices every day since the technology is actually perfectly suited for the blind. With good satelite accuracy GPS can actually guide a blind person right up to their house. To break this down to its core element. A sighted person has the option of using VZ's GPS software on their phones. A sighted person is precluded from doing this even though GPS software for the blind exists and is in common use and the legal precedents have pointed to this being a violation of section 255. So no I didn't forget about the portion of section 255 that mentions the qualifier of the technology already existing but in the case of GPS it certainly does exist.
See this link: http://www.codefactory.es/en/products.asp?id=273 Regards, Frankie Quote:
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Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
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Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
this is my favorite thread right now!
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Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
While it is true that selling handsets is not where carriers make their money, the perceived falacy is that they loose money by subsidizing handsets. The word subsidizing (which was popularized by the cell industry) suggests that they actually pay for a portion of your handset, again not true. For those of you that have worked in retail electronics you know that the retail markup is between forty and fifty percent. So when you buy a widget from the corner Big Bobs Electronics for $100, good old big Bob paid around $55 for that widget from his wholesaler. Now the whoesaler has a markup of around half of that. So Bob's wholesaler paid around $44 for that widget from the company that build the widget. Now since cell carriers are by far the largest retailers of handsets (in the U.S.) they can bypass a regional distributer/wholesaler and by directly from the handset manufacturers, at a wholesale or subwholesale price. So a handset with a retail cost of, lets say, $500 should have a wholesale (carrier) cost of around $200. The deal you make with the carriers, when you sign a contract, is that they pass along a large portion of that discount to you in return for you signing your life to them for a specified period; but they do not in any way pay for a portion of your handset. That is why I cringe when I hear the term subsidizing being used as it really implies the wrong thing.
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Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
I agree that if any thing will be done it wil have to do with saftey. for one thing an unlocked gps probbley could have saved lots of people lost in the somewhare on accident. like That guy from cnet that died in my area of the states well close. I just last night went out and tried to use my gps out wher i get no cell survice. It picked me up every where and had roades that i did not even know where there. You can even text message your exact location to sombody when you find service. It could save people. Besides my electrical system going out and staying out till this morning long story but i was surprised how well it worked but. Gps should be onlocked but verizon is a business and they have to make money. If they start losing money or give stuff away ther just is going to be another way to charge you for somthing else. The people that make the decisions reall just want to make a proffit but that just so happens to include making costimers happy. It will happen. Thats the trend of things and verizon dont want to lose market share over that. Nobody really has a good enough reason to patition and i reall wont back any thing i do not believ in. The handicap is a joke. Thats like using a handicap sticker to get a good parking spot. To the person thats is blind and needs it. that is good for you butr i dont feel right getting benifit from somthing like that. Its moraly wrong. I would say that if it happens great but dont expect them to spend millions of dollars to completly change one phons softwere. Oh but wait they are and they are testing it. If they were that greedy maybe they would have thrown it out at said good luck. We have what we want whats the big deal any way. I heard it was a samsung releas any way.
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Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
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Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
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You're talking what they CAN'T use vs. what they COULD use. They certainly COULD use a working GPS system. Verizon could most CERTAINLY make it available to blind persons, by unlocking the chipset for use. If you're on an unlimited data plan, who cares if its TomTom, GoogleMaps or VZW Navigator running the chipset? Oh, that's right. VZW does, because they want to gorp you for yet another monthly fee. No thanks, I'm already paying $140/month for all of our phones, and I've been on for three years. |
Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
http://www.phonearena.com/htmls/Veri...le-a_5359.html
You can be wasting your time any way. verizon can tell fcc that they are working on it and i bet they will agree that proper testing is a good idea since that is what they like to see. Also if you check above page from phonearena you can see that they are releasing number two of three phones that they said they would unlock the gps in. When i talked to a tech guy a a month ago he never mentioned GPS but said samsung was coming out with a upgrade for "greatly improving screen performance" and other bug fixes software upgrades and battory performance. I promise this is my last responce to this thread and i hope it just goes away |
Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
Verizon is about to release an official ROM to unlock the GPS on their Touch Pro...check the article here...
http://www.phonearena.com/htmls/Veri...le-a_5359.html Maybe, Hopefully, we're next...! |
Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
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If you bought the phone out right (full price) not subsidized then you might have a leg to stand on in court but if you signed a new contract then you will have to wait for it to expire. The FCC has made companies unlock phone's that are out of contract so I don't see how this would be different. |
Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
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and who in their right mind would pay full price for a phone just to have free GPS...? is it really that serious...! this is too funny |
Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
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Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
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So Maby when your done with this you can have a big party after you win in five years. maybe next step would be to bring haliburton to court for wasting money in iraqe overcharging us for work. Or maybe get my aunts money back from enron. Oh how about get exxon to actually pay for the dammage in prince william sound in Aleska when valdeez dumped all that oil. Or if you could help me out with al that energy you have. my mom is on morphine for the rest of her life cause the doctor hit her spine during surgury. can never work do docter will tuch her so she collects disability that barley covers her rent. Why not just buy a gps unit from garmin and complain that you had to pay for it. I was thinking about complaing i have to pay for water and electricity and food and then complain to a starving african or a homless man that I through my food away cause it was over cooked. But god help me if my phone does not have free GPS. I hope i can make it another day without it i might get lost. May you have my dearest sympothy if you have to buy something or i am not sure if they still teach this in scool. READ A MAP. AND GET OFF THE COMPUTER PUT DOWN THE HOT POCKET GO OUTSIDE AND ENJOY YOUR FREE AMERICAN SELF. GO TO SCHOOL AND I MEAN COLLAGE. LEARN ABOUT THE LAW AND REALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE. MOST IMPORTANT MOVE OUT OF YOUR PARRENTS HOUSE. Or not sit back complain about stuff and just tell mommy to buy you an iphone. Maybe i was raised wrong maybe i should whine to get my way. Keep going thouh I aprove this thread. I can get my frustrations out when I read it so i can forget about the econimy and why there is no ships coming in this week so i can drive 100 miles in two round trips a day 6:30am and 5:00 pm and not get a job. Just so i can come home and read this and vent. Sorry to the blind fellow i was not including you. You desurve to have the ability to get around. But will somebody please please please just get some more infermation from verizon or pleas verizon give us a bone so i do not have to read all thes complaints when i try to look up stuff for my .omnia. And whil i am complaing stop posting fifty responces to a post that says "oh i have the same problem not a solution but i just want to talk" and not help so i have to read fifty pages of this to get a solution. Peace and Love. Pleas somebodey any bodyy privat message me i would love it if sombody could prove me wrong. I Would love to debate this somewher else. I love to argue. I have alot of timeon my hands. |
Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
Originally Posted by KodiakClark
Are they legally in the right? That is the question. GPS is a free service, if you purchase a TomTom then you would expect to be able to access GPS. You don't have to pay a monthly subscription fee to access the satellite signals, which is exactly what VZW is doing. True the phones are Verizon branded, but we did purchase the phone. If we were say renting the phone from them then I could see them locking features (they still own the phone), but if you paid for your phone then it should come with all of the features that are advertised from the manufacturer. Like Syrguy said there should be a ROM update from VZW and in any case there are already unlocked ROMs out there, so who cares about VZW's update! - - - Did you purchase a tom tom or garmin that was worth 500 dollars for 99. Can you leagly put garmon or tom tom on your phone for free. Or do you have to pay for that. I am confused. I am at a loss for words. I think I am going to take my neighbors car cause i paid taxes for the road. And complain when he calls the cops. Mater of fact government owns gm thats tax money rite on cant wait for my Hummer (H1 that is there still close to the military ones) to show up in my driveway. And they better have Gps built in its my right. And remember you signed a contract. Thats why you can get a cheap one. They were made for that purpose I900 was made to be unlocked. If you bought one full price on the internet you have no rights on this. Be happy there working on it. The reall crime is not having the ability to fix your own phone buy having the og rom available to fix a dead phone. Ther is verry little tech support on this phone. |
Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
Well that was a long, pointless post. Anyway, the Touch Pro ROM upgrade was released yesterday (too bad it still sucks compared to the Sprint version), so hopefully they'll hook us up soon.
Edit - you can't get TomTom or Garmin software for free, legally of course, but there are many, many free options, and if you do buy Garmin or TomTom's software, etc, there are no monthly fees. The point is, quit playing the Devil's advocate, and your arguments make no sense. |
Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
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Re: File Complaint with FTC against Verizon for locking GPS on Omina (& other phones)
Why is it that the only way to get the GPS to operate fully is to flash it? Shouldn't there be a way to single out that functionality and reset the gps that way instead of flashing the entire rom or somehow modifying the rom? Maybe a dumb question but just a thought. I'm not willing to take the risk of flashing my phone for the GPS. I will just pack up and go to a different carrier.
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