GPS GPS GPS!

[shadowmite]

ok, www.shadowmite.com/temp/6800-ant1.jpg
Here's what the fcc pic looks like:
www.shadowmite.com/temp/real-ant.jpg

That's what sprint folks have at least, others please take your own pics to compare if you like. Now on the fcc docs, https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/oet/f...ive_or_pdf=pdf
at page 11 you can see the massive traces which make up the antenna, ours is trivial and has no actual antenna in it. Furthermore, that massive blotch of copper seems to be shorting it, potentially they put this in INSTEAD of the proper gps antenna is my guess. Give me a little more time to see if there is anything on the other side just not visable through that white plastic...

[shadowmite]

Well, here's my opinion, they type certified it as a GPS capable device. They then REMOVED the real antenna (conspiracy theories?) and replaced it with a shorting loop which is almost a exact match. It's held on by 2 screws, same mount as the real one in that pic. So it's potentially possible to replace with the real part if we can order them, or for that matter, we have the fcc pic, we could duplicate the part ourselves and replace it!

Here's the catch, we need the radio image at minimum from that fcc model, or a real gps enabled model. I would encourage others with verizon, alltel etc to take pics of this part and post if it's any different. They wouldn't type certify it unless they are selling it to someone... Perhaps a korean model!?

EDIT: I've removed the antenna blank from my phone and verified, it is nothing more than a blank, furthermore, we are missing a part of the LNA circuit as pictured at the fcc link:
www.shadowmite.com/temp/ant-missing.jpg

[ComputerJLT]

Originally Posted by TheRealJobe

Telenav uses cellular triangulation as a solution to the locating of the user. This is not the same way that true GPS uses.

No it doesn't


None of you guys seem to know what a-gps really does. That stands for ASSISTED gps not some magic jdm supertimersignalmetere that can triangulate positions down to a few inches.
What happens with a-gps is the raw satelite data is sent TO the towers and to sprint where it is interepreted there, NOT at the handset or in the reciever like the gps devices you think of now how they interpret it.
That way they can get a lock almost instantly (much more computing power and already having a good idea where you're at cuts down on lock time).

Most, ok all new handsets have some sort of a-gps to use for e-911 and whatever other marketing gimics cell providers come up with
ONLY SOME however can support standalone mode, mogul touch and apache being some that can.
Unfortunately though sprint has done a good job keeping a veil over how the cdma modem/gps work inside our phones. Until someone with much more smarts than people here gets in there and tears apart the firmware and rewrites or discovers how they keep gps standalone disabled you're just going to have to use a bt gps.

Enabling gps in a mogul touch or apache is very very very much a possibilty its just no one has really looked into it seriously (i'm talking getting out the logic probes and knowledge of the code on the modem) and sprint sure as hell isn't going to hand over something they can charge money for

/edit: dont take my word for it here is wikipedia on agps
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGPS

agps can get a general idea where you are based on cell towers alone, not from triangulation but from a database that the cell providers have
OR it can take satelite signals and get an exact lock.

dont believe me go to a sprint store and pickup one of the new java enabled phones and play with telenav, that ish is great and it uses a-gps.

[Malatesta]

Originally Posted by ComputerJLT

Enabling gps in a mogul touch or apache is very very very much a possibilty its just no one has really looked into it seriously (i'm talking getting out the logic probes and knowledge of the code on the modem) and sprint sure as hell isn't going to hand over something they can charge money for

agps can get a general idea where you are based on cell towers alone, not from triangulation but from a database that the cell providers have
OR it can take satelite signals and get an exact lock.

Some qualifications here: when talking about aGPS, you should at least mention gpsOne, which is the standard we are using. All Sprint phones use gpsOne chips, even BlackBerries (despite some people foolishly claiming SirfIII just because it does standalone).

gpsOne can operate in 4 modes

• Standalone - Your handset has no connection to the network, and uses only the GPS satellite signals it can currently receive to try and establish a location.
• MS Based - Your handset is connected to the network, and uses the GPS signals + a location signal from the network.
• MS Assisted - Your handset is connected to the network, uses GPS signals + a location signal then relays its 'fix' to the server, which then uses the signal strength from your phone to the network towers to further plot your position. You can still maintain voice communication in this scenario, but not 'Internet/Network service' ie Web Browser, IM, streaming TV etc..
• MS Assisted/Hybrid - Same as above, but network functionality remains. Normally only in areas with exceptional coverage.

That is what we are dealing with. Now, I don't see any mention of an internal antenna, but I believe in the msm65/7500 data sheets it may.

OTOH, the HTC Kaiser is well known to have "standalone GPS" but it in fact uses gpsOne (msm7200) and from the FCC photos, I can't find its antenna (any one else?, although you can plug into the back, so maybe there...)

This comment about Sprint "sure as hell isn't going to hand over something they can charge money for it" is totally false. I think it used to be very true though, but Sprint is giving up on it and moving forward.

For one, the Windows Mobile 6 Motorola Q9c on Sprint has free, standalone GPS on it. It can use Google Maps, Live Search, etc.

Number two, it begs the question: what the hell is Sprint and HTC saying when they say the Mogul (and Touch) are getting a ROM upgrade to "enable GPS on the device"?

(also, if the 6700 was going to be hacked for GPS, Colonel would have done it already )
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shadowmite

Thanks for the effort. I have no idea what it means. lol

We'll just have to wait till Sprint/HTC roll out the update in Q1 for the Touch and Mogul and see what it does.

It would be very interesting to do three things

1. Open up the Moto Q q9c and see its guts: msm7500 or sirfIII? I bet the former.
2. Does it have an internal antenna?
3. Does the Sprint Touch have an internal antenna?

[APOLAUF]

Shadowmite, your picture entitled "6800-ant1.jpg", with the white part, that is what our phones actually have, correct? I completely see what you're saying by something "missing", i.e. a longish trace that goes around the similar part. However, the thing pictured in 6800-ant1.jpg, doesn't that correspond to a "Patch Antenna", that many many stand-alone GPS devices have? It looks awfully similar to the antenna found in my Garmin eTrex Legend. A quick Wiki reference pulls up this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patch_antenna

Maybe I'm wrong, but the fact is, it's still something. Malatesta, as you have indicated the Kaiser's gpsOne device is the same that we have - the MSM7200 is nothing more than an MSM7500 with a GSM radio and associated tx/rx infrastructure.

I have heard arguments about frequency-modulating the Wifi/BT antenna or even the radio antennas, though I don't know quite exactly how that would accomplish anything reliably - though I freely admit that my background is in digital systems and embedded software, not signals.

I guess my bottom line is this: I choose to believe that we have a hardware GPS capability in the phone, and I believe we have the antenna for it. Patch, or "frequency modulated", whatever it may be, I think we have it. I'm hopeful that we can finally have some peace about this, and that I won't have to carry around my Holux M1000 (the free pouch that came with it is a lifesaver. )... though I suspect that the high-sensitivity SiRF-III receiver on the Holux might beat the crap out of the Mogul's receiver. Either way, let's just hope for the best!

[jfolliard]

God! I love you techie guys! I have a new Mogul - haven't a clue what you're talking about - actually I might have a little 'cause I'm a old/new geek - bought my first Apple clone PC - a Franklin for $3K about 18-20 years ago - I'm one of those guys the IT folks hate - give me a button and I'll push it!

Anyway - keep up the great dialogue - All know is that I have a new 6800 and I'm just waiting for some one to tell me to push this button, flash this ROM, say the hokey-pokey and I get GPS!

BTW - I'm one of the first to to get the new ROM last night - works great. Again, give me a beta or even an alpha and I'm there - although I've probably led the world re-formatting my computers/smartphones!

Seriously, us "level minus 3" guys really do appreciate what all of you are doing even though it's Greek to us - you know, maybe not pure Greek - enough that I undertand the concepts, and enough to make me dangerous with a device/computer.

Thanks.

Jack

[shadowmite]

Originally Posted by APOLAUF

Shadowmite, your picture entitled "6800-ant1.jpg", with the white part, that is what our phones actually have, correct? I completely see what you're saying by something "missing", i.e. a longish trace that goes around the similar part. However, the thing pictured in 6800-ant1.jpg, doesn't that correspond to a "Patch Antenna", that many many stand-alone GPS devices have? It looks awfully similar to the antenna found in my Garmin eTrex Legend. A quick Wiki reference pulls up this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patch_antenna

Maybe I'm wrong, but the fact is, it's still something. Malatesta, as you have indicated the Kaiser's gpsOne device is the same that we have - the MSM7200 is nothing more than an MSM7500 with a GSM radio and associated tx/rx infrastructure.

I have heard arguments about frequency-modulating the Wifi/BT antenna or even the radio antennas, though I don't know quite exactly how that would accomplish anything reliably - though I freely admit that my background is in digital systems and embedded software, not signals.

I guess my bottom line is this: I choose to believe that we have a hardware GPS capability in the phone, and I believe we have the antenna for it. Patch, or "frequency modulated", whatever it may be, I think we have it. I'm hopeful that we can finally have some peace about this, and that I won't have to carry around my Holux M1000 (the free pouch that came with it is a lifesaver. )... though I suspect that the high-sensitivity SiRF-III receiver on the Holux might beat the crap out of the Mogul's receiver. Either way, let's just hope for the best!

Yep, you are correct, that's the pic the sprint 6800 at least has. And I believe you're also correct it's possible that it's a patch antenna. Hmm, I really can't say at this point, but what about the missing part (I believe a diode)? I think we'll have to wait and see if anything is activated by sprint here. But I will start to reverse the radio code and see if I can find anything that leads me to believe there is a gps mode to enable. With a patch here and there we can supercid the radio and be able to send any AT commands we want (including the gps fix request to test this).

[Malatesta]

Fascinating stuff APOLAUF & Shadowmite...

That patch antenna stuff is interesting. My feeling is they will enable a fully functioning GPS. How that happens and how it works, I have no idea. Though as pointed above, this is fun stuff.

Too bad though someone from HTC couldn't just explain it--I'm not sure why they keep this stuff so secretive, especially when places like XDA and ppcgeeks literally thrive on it...

Oh well...back to speculating and in Shadow's case, actual testing.

[no2chem]

Originally Posted by shadowmite

Yep, you are correct, that's the pic the sprint 6800 at least has. And I believe you're also correct it's possible that it's a patch antenna. Hmm, I really can't say at this point, but what about the missing part (I believe a diode)? I think we'll have to wait and see if anything is activated by sprint here. But I will start to reverse the radio code and see if I can find anything that leads me to believe there is a gps mode to enable. With a patch here and there we can supercid the radio and be able to send any AT commands we want (including the gps fix request to test this).

It's going to take a bit more than enabling the gps in radio. I've looked into this, and I did a bit of research on how they enabled (or tried to) GPS on the hermes myself. The main issue is that from bootloader, we have no access to rtask, or prouter yet. I think spl-1.40 _might_ correct this, I've been looking to do some debugging in KITL myself, which is currently not enabled in spl-1.20.

Even with a rtask enabled, theres still considerable work you need to do with the ril in ce so you can talk to the gps (expose it to some com port). With the hermes, a lot of people spent a lot of time, and in the end they couldn't get an accurate (or usable) signal fix.

With that said, and the "promise" of gps and rev-A being available in Q1 2008, I would think that hacking the gps would be purely "educational" as by the time you got close to figuring out sprint would have probably released an official gps rom. Even if sprint decides to back out from releasing gps on the titan, they probably will release it on the touch, which has a rillayer thats actually completely compatible with the titan. Assuming that we enable gps in radio, we'd be in buisness.

About the missing antenna, they may have decided (sometime in production) that not putting it in wouldn't significantly affect performance to justify its cost: I'm sure you'd still be able to get some sort of signal from the ~1500MHz band off the 1900MHz CDMA antenna, and that may have been a last minute design decision. (note: I haven't looked at the pictures yet, but do you see any duplexer/diplexer/triplexer circutry to the radio antenna?) I doubt Sprint would have said GPS will be enabled if they knew it was permamently disabled in hardware, I also doubt that Sprint would have been so cheap as to not pay a few cents for a piece of copper that it would permamently disable any chance of hardware gps.

In short: I believe there will actually be an official sprint release. I think that although it'd be fun to figure out before sprint, chances are more than likely sprint will figure it out before us. I think that our efforts are better directed at something else (like getting video acceleration working!!!). Besides, without access to rtask in bootloader its unlikely you'd be able to get any control over the radio (or be able to debug the radio).

[alex_electro]

Hi guys. I know it's unplaesant for you, but i'll repeat again about the gpsOne go on the ftp and read in the folder msm 7500 gps fonction is describe (including frequecie mudulation to share the phone anthenna) Also a manuel about gpsOne plane mode that is full of code that i know about but interesting. I'll connect on the chat for a part of the day so if some quation appear come found me there. So have a nice freezy week-end.