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Piracy, warez and You.
Just b/c I think it's important and it's been posted everywhere. Support your developers! :thumbleft:
Feel free to discuss. --Mal ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Open Letter from Alex Kac, CEO/Founder WebIS We thought we should post this plea in the entire original version to our readers: Myself and a band of software devs here have found a *very* large pirate warez site which I will not link to. They have cracks for almost everything imaginable. They have our software on there with download ratios in the TENS of THOUSANDS. In many cases I find more downloads of our software on the warez site than I see on our own download servers. I’ve calculated that even if we only lost 10% of those downloads that could have been sales its a pretty major hit. The fact is that companies like ours and most other WinMobile devs operate on a shoestring budget. Most of our software sells at a break-even point, some at a loss until it breaks even 2-4 years after introduction. For the amount of money I’ve “lost†I could have *easily* created a Pocket Informant for Desktop or BlackBerry or heck other major applications or improvements. I could have hired an extremely high paid developer for a year or two averagely paid ones. For a company that has only 3 full time developers that’s a fairly major loss. The fact is that piracy hurts those who pirate. They want our software obviously. Some just use it for a “testâ€, but we offer a two week trial and with a bit of work you can probably get 2-3 months free usage of our products a year. And we don’t sell for a large amount of money. Just wait and you can usually get our software for a steal - without actually stealing. I don’t think paying $9.95 is such a huge issue if you need an app like VoiceMinder. Its barely a lunch and drink. But the reason piracy hurts those who pirate is because they are like vampires slowly killing the company that they are sucking the applications off of. Who here would care if there was never a VoiceMinder, FlexWallet, FlexMail, or Pocket Informant upgrade again? I have personally had fleeting thoughts of selling WebIS or just closing it down because even as this market has grown the software market has not and while I’m not naive enough to think its *all* about piracy, I know that it just makes me depressed. And no, we’re not closing down and yes there will be major upgrades of everything. And yes, piracy has been part of the software business from the very beginning but that doesn’t mean I can’t ask you to stop. And therein lies my plea to you. If you actually use our software please pay for it. When you don’t you personally are contributing to the financial downfall of a bunch of people who are working hard to make good quality software for you. If you don’t want to think of piracy as theft, think of it as stiffing us. Would you stiff the waiter of a tip? How about the guy who built your house? How about the plumber or the electrician? Or the Taxi cab driver? And yes, software does cost money to make. I pay electric bills, Microsoft dues, travel expenses to meet with MS devs, trade shows, advertising, not to mention salaries. So if you wouldn’t stiff the waiter at your favorite restaurant his 15% (or 10% if you’re money concious) tip, why stiff us the few bucks we ask? WebIS has always been extremely liberal in our licensing as well. We don’t use activation (we’ve thought about it), we don’t lock our license to your username, we don’t do anything to make licensing hard. We let you run our software on as many devices that you personally use and we use the honor system. Heck, we even make 2-3 versions of our software in most cases and let you pay for one and get them all. So that’s all. Hope you guys have a great day! Alex Kac, CEO/Founder Web IS |
What we have here is a discussion between hard goods and services versus soft goods and services. Most of us would never try to stiff the plumber that just spent an hour snaking out our filthy clogged pipes. The plumber is providing a hard service. It’s tangible. You can see it. You can see the results. You can interact with the plumber, etc.
Compare that against soft services and goods such as video files, audio files, and software that you get online. Most of us do not recognize these are as being tangible goods or services. Indeed, most of us just see the latest U2 song that we find online as a file worthy of being downloaded. It is lacking as a tangible good. It is essentially not real to us except when we play it on our computer, iPod, etc. Ironically, we wouldn’t go into a music store and steal the U2 compact disc. So what is the difference then between buying the cd at a brick and mortar music store versus finding it via LimeWire, etc.? The difference is the perception of what it represents. The difference is the perception of what the medium is. I freely admit that I have downloaded a boatload of songs off the internet. Now would I go to a music store and steal all of those cd’s? No. So what’s the difference? Again the difference is perception. I don’t see it as “stealing†when I download songs. To me it’s just a file. It’s not a tangible good. I have no association with it being real. I think software obviously falls into to that non-tangible category. It’s something that just goes on our phone/computer. Would we go to BestBuy and steal the latest version of PhotoShop? No. But if we can get a free upgrade or get the program essentially for free online why wouldn’t we do it? I’m not saying that we should “steal†from or “stiff†developers. What I am saying is that selling soft goods and services is fraught with its own limitations, etc. It’s the chance you take. Again…it’s all linked, I believe, to perception. late, Coz |
Wonder what site he was referencing? You know, for research purposes. :)
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My problem is that companies like Handango and their "download protection" do not aid in the matter. Say you bought a program and for whatever reason (hard reset) lost the code, Handango makes you jump through hoops to get that information (Pocketgear.com seems a lot better in this regard). Even I frequent those warez groups but mostly because I'm a "tester" of eveything. More often than not I try to buy it, especially when they have those "sales" like for Newsbreak at $7.95. It's pervassive, that's for sure and I can understand Alex's frustration. OTOH, I remember the developer of VGSMail (who abandoned that wonderful app and it's users, including those who paid... :x ) after I informed him his program had been cracked/is in warez groups that he was "glad" b/c maybe now people will learn about his software e.g. it was free promotion. And it's funny, b/c indeed warez groups tend to be great bastions of cataloged software. I tell you, also interacting with developers via email and posts makes you think twice--because of perception--you now "know" this person somewhat. |
Well here's a timely situation that I just ran into. My son wanted to play Sim Coaster on the pc at home. Since it was no longer installed he proceeded to put the cd in and install it. Well soon up pops the screen that requires you to enter in the serial from the packaging in order to continue with installation. Well the packaging had long since been lost so what was I to do? Well I did what any good parent does...he goes on-line and finds the serial. Do I feel bad? Not really. We had already purchased the game. I wasn't about to try to figure out how to get the code through normal channels as looking on-line took about 30 seconds.
Now if my son had asked me to go out to the web and get a cracked version of Sim Coaster I wouldn't have done. late, Coz |
If it weren't for Bittorrent, I wouldn't have found many of the programs I have purchased.
Many of the programs reviewed here, and reviewed favorably I might add, have been useless to me and I'm glad I didn't have to pay for them. As a matter of fact, I only have 2 "pay" programs on my Treo 700wx. My iMate Jam is a different story. I have paid for approximately 8 programs on that phone. All of them were tried via BT downloads prior to purchasing. |
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Pibe, I agree wiht you and with a little of him, the con with trials is sometimes they dont offer you full access to the program (at least with pc programs, i havent really tried tooo many trials for ppc) So I'm not here to judge but try to stay neutral on it, but one could argue that trials do not offer complete use of the program. That being said keep in mind if you do NOT pay for the program you should only consider it a trial and if you like it then buy it.
PH Pibe, in that case I rescind my comment about ppc apps but maintain it for PC purposes lol and if I've already purchased a game and lost the serial yes I would look one up online lol |
IIRC, the only trial PPC version I have encountered that limits the amount of access is SK Tools. All the other ones give you full access for a set period of time.
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I've got some mixed feelings about this.
And as I read Alex's letter and the following thread, it got me thinking. I'll admit that I've only paid for a few of the retail programs that are on my device. I usually rationalized that "this should have been part of a device like this anyway" or "that's way more expensive than it should be". If the developer seemed reasonable and offered a good product w/good support, I paid. Upgrades were another catch (in my mind)~ if a reasonable upgrade price wasn't part of the deal, then I'd find the upgrade for free. Now I'm reconsidering what is reasonable. And considering paying for a few of the programs that I've been using that I haven't used regularly or have used past the trial period. :evil: I also realize that it's not the developers' fault that MS didn't include some of this functionality in their devices. Now I need to go and add up how much all this software will cost to register legally and how much I can actually afford. Grrr. UPDATE: Holy crap. To pay for all the retail software that I use (or sometimes use) on my PPC would cost $221.46. And that doesn't include some of the "add-on" stuff like some themes/skins (although I don't use many of those) & some games that I wouldn't even know how to find the prices for (and would probably not install if I had to pay for them). I'm going to start paying for some, but I'll probably pay for different ones over time as upgrades come out... Geez. I had no idea I had so much stuff. |
Being a developer I'll have to chime in.
Developing for PPC is not the same as developing for a PC running Windows whatever. You're a lot more restricted in what you do and how you do it. I've ported some programs I have made on the PC to the PPC and it has been a pain trying to get the same functionality on there. That being said I know full and well that creating a program for the phone is more often than not a one-man show. Why? Because the programs aren't usually that complex and when they are the price becomes too much to pay out by those that might have been interested. There is a perception that PPC software is like this and is more likely the reason why there is so much downloading of pirated copies of this type of software as stated on the letter. I think as developers we go into this sort of development with that in mind and should face the consequences. Do I support pirating? Well of course not...that's our hard-work being stolen. Do I lose sleep over it? Nope. I'm not naive enough to create a company that gets supported by a few Pocket PC aps. Such a company would be doomed to extinction IMO...unless you have a few applications available and are constantly being updated and improving your software as is the case with Lakeridge Software (WisBar) and if anyone has ever followed Chris' work via his forum you'll notice that he's always hard at work with his apps AND keeping a steady job. A bit more work than I would like to do. Perception was mentioned and is a big chunk of this. My perception has indeed changed since becoming a developer so I don't go looking for pirated software anymore. I now tend to either look for a free option or create my own program/solution. |
n00b response
I'm new to this site, awaiting delivery of a 6800, so Im trying to learn all I can. I'm a geezer n00b, going back to Comm64 days. As someone has noted, this issue has been around since the beginning of software. I don't do warez and so far haven't d/l any music legal or otherwise! But as a thinking, and hopefully intelligent person, I did stop by and read the thread, and it made me stop and think, as it did the person who totaled up the value of his software. I think part of the issue is that some of the software/tweaks grew up originally in a basement or garage or among friends or a users group and was just FUN. A challenge or a minor want, or fix. A hobbiest approach. That's why many of us are here and on other similar sites. But I definitely appreciate what the original poster has said, the way he said it, and that he took the time to politely say it. There is some major software in the world that makes our lives easier/better (I hope) and the people would created it should be rewarded for their labor.
My thanks and a tip o'the hat to the developers here. Health and prosperity to you. |
Coz' response made me think of that commercial they aired a couple years or so ago. It showed a guy breaking into a car and driving off... then a guy breaks into a house and starts setting up his stuff... similar situations, people stealing boats, CD's, random "personal belongings." Anyways... after each robbery scene it says, "You wouldn't steal a (insert object being stolen)" then at the end it says, "... so why do you steal music?" It was some RIAA commercial. My first and immediate response to it was, "Well... if I could steal a brand new BMW as easily as I can steal an mp3 online I would... and more people would be driving Beamers."
But to seriously weigh in on the matter... I agree people that make music, software, anything "intangible" which is a great description by the way, should be rewarded, good software I pay for, just like good CD's I buy. |
Well.. all very well and depends.. right now i only have TWO pay programs on my treo700wx.. am i paying for them.. no..i did find a serial number for both.. WOULD i buy them.. hell yeah..
but i mean.. these ppc's dont come cheap.. and some people feels as though that alot of the solid apps on here should have already been on here from the beggining. After shelling out about 400-500 on a phone i dont think people will be as enthused to spend another 200 just on software that makes their ppc more enjoyable just another perspective.. |
That perspective is hard to justify in my opinion. THe people that write this software that makes your ppc more enjoyable don't get any part of the 400-500 you paid for the phone.
I mean it is one thing to pirate software but another thing altogether to justify it. Accept that it is wrong and feel bad about doing it. I'm not saying I'm perfect in that regard but at least I'm honest with myself that pirating software of any kind is taking money directly out of the pocket of the guy that spent his blood sweat and tears making it. I am not owed that software, no matter how much I paid for the phone itself. |
Dang...that means that I should have stolen that GPS instead of buy it. I mean it should have come with the car! After all...I did pay $14K for it.
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lol, sarcasm not needed my dude.. just like one guy up there said.. he would download (technically pirating) an album online but wouldnt go into best buy and steal a cd though.. so your example was nothing but an ill attempt at humor..
but anyway.. luv2chill.. i understand what you saying though and like i said it was just another perspective and i actually do plan on purchasing my own license especially for my wisbar advance.. love that thing and would like to be support them.. thats no big deal to me but feel bad though? Nah no one should ever feel bad about any decision they do in their life lol.. |
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I like this one too http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/947...obviousyy9.jpg :lol: |
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Say you decide to drive drunk one night and hit and cripple a pedestrian. I guess you should never feel bad about that decision to get in the car and drive, according to your POV. See how ridiculous that is? Of course you should feel bad about committing any act of harm towards another person--whether that be a car you dent in a parking lot, a loan you don't repay, or a piece of software you steal. Fundamentally all of that stuff boils down to causing harm to another party--and you're supposed to feel bad about doing that. |
To be honest, I didn't even know warez existed for PPC until I saw this thread back when it was first posted. Being the deviant I am, a quick google search led me to some warez sites, and 1 remains on my favorites.
HOWEVER, I came back to this thread today, and read it the first day as well, and decided to check up on how many programs on my phone have been obtained and still-used illegally. warez- 2 the rest is freeware or I have purchased. I have downloaded many more warez than 2, and have purchased a few of them; I prefer using the warez site because it is cleaner, has no advertising, and has no sponsors so it is much easier to find what I am looking for, or find something new and unbiased, with reviews from many people. I then proceed to download and install those programs, and usually uninstall them shortly after as I find them unnecessary, like a demo without the nag screen, I suppose. The two that I have on my device right now that I haven't paid for are because they are newly installed. One I installed a couple days ago, and another I installed just tonight. When I have the money, I'll pay for the one I've had for a few days, as I find it exemplary. The other one is nice, but it isn't something I'll get real use out of until school begins again, so if it ends up doing what I need it to do during school, I'll pay for that one too. In closing, warez and warez-sites aren't THAT bad, it just depends on the people (99%, I'd gather ;) ) I like the warez sites, and I like not being nagged about purchasing something I haven't even begun to try yet, so I'll continue to use it to discover new and great things, but people make these programs because they want to and they enjoy it, and I respect that enough to reward them for their work. |
finding a serial online for a pocket pc program is no where as serious as crippling pedestrians or swiping gps systems from circuit city lol
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I find most sites provide plenty of great information about a program and how it works -- the one that belongs to the author in the original post has tons of screenshots for its programs. And as was mentioned earlier, most of these programs provide generous trial periods where the software is fully-functioning. And there are many of other sites (pocketpcthoughts, pocketnow, pdaphonehome, this one) where reviews are posted and users can discuss the program. I bet you can find out more about a program and how well it works from those sites than you ever could on any warez site. In the end, if you want to use warez, that's your choice. But I really don't think that warez sites are good places to get information on the latest programs, other than finding out what people want to STEAL most. |
LOL @ want to STEAL the most..
when i 1st got my treo i LOADED it with pay apps and free apps just to get a feel on how they work, what i needed, what i would not need, and what i liked best so i think out of 10 apps i put on there.. only ended up reinstalling 2.. and for 29.95 and 19.95 thats not a bad price.. well 29.95 kinda steep for a lil 100k file.. support and updates are worth it tho just hope i wouldnt lose the license info |
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ok..
no one should feel bad about something they CHOSE to do.. so those examples.. crippling the pedestrian.. yeah thats messed up.. and your at fault.. but if my mans CHOSE to steal the gps system why should he feel bad for it? it was his decision and he was in COMPLETE control of the situation maybe its just a difference in ways of living but i mean i just rather not regret anything ive chosen to do in my lifetime.. shouldnt dwell on the negative aspects of life but thats a COMPLETLY different subject but back on the subject whats your feelings on ONE person purchasing a license for a ppc app, and then sharing the license with a couple other friends.. ?? |
"Keep it Simple...Stupid"
The more you overwhelm your ppc with programs, the lesser stable you'll find it, the faster the battery will drain and the more sluggish it'll become. Having said that, I would like to approach this from another POV: I have realized with my experience with Warez PPC apps is that people will generally download it and use it just for the sake of having it. When I first bought my 6700 I felt excited at the endless possibilities of all the programs free or not that I can get my hands on. Little did I find satisfaction in that. I have also realized that availability of freeware out there supercedes my need for any shareware programs and I'm a pretty demanding user! There's literally a freeware counterpart to every paid program out there and so PPC users shouldn't be pirating these programs just so they can have them or say they have them. In fact, it's 8 months after I first got my 6700 and 80% plus of the apps I use are freeware and work just as well or better than their shareware counterparts. I'm not against shareware and I respect developers' attempt at honest business, but I, first and foremost support the open source and/or concept of freeware. For many shareware product and what it does, there's a freeware program (or multiple ones) that performs in the nearly the same manner: 1. Smartskey -> None really 2. Tomtom GPS, iguidance, etc -> Live Search, Gmaps 3. Pocketbreeze/Diary -> Calendar+, O2 Calendar 4. Memmaid -> Dot Fred Task Manager 5. Phonealarm -> O2 Sound Profiles 6. Pocket Player/Core Player -> MortPlayer/TCPMP 5. Internet Sharing -> PDAnet 6. claunch/02 Shortcuts -> ilauncher 7. Cyberon -> MS Voice Command 8. Hubdog, etc -> Egress And the list goes on. Obviously, there are some features you want to utilize that aren't available in free programs and at the end of the day it shouldn't cost you much more to satisfy those by purchasing those programs. The bottom line is to think twice before downloading and using a pirated app. Most likely you don't need it. And, the list goes on and on. |
pretty much.. like i said i had a lot of programs on my device.. then after my 1st hard reset i only ended up reinstalling 2.. and i have no issue paying for those.. cause there are no free warte alternatives and they're very solid apps wouldnt mind supporting the devs. to make it even better
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And, food for thought regarding a warez-like similar situation. Show of hands... most folks here have some combination of WinZip, WinRAR, and/or WS_FTP. You know the ones... the "nonexpiring" trial versions. How many of you have anted up for the commercial versions once you decided you liked the trials? Wow, pretty quiet. |
Long Time User
As a long time Palm User - as well as PC user .. I have download and tried many programs. I had my own crisis of conscience and finally decided to start paying for all the programs I used on a regular basis. I asked myself - is this something I need? Something I am glad is out there? Something I regularly use? If the answer to any of these was yes... I registered.
As a Palm shareware developer (putting a few games/utilities out there) I saw that I got many downloads, but few chose to contribute, so I had to go stop developing things because I wasnt even getting my out of pocket expenses covered (programming environment, new palms to test on - compatability issues). What do I think is behind this. Part of it is the fact that once software is developed, there is little/no cost to another version. Unlike a CD or a GPS unit, if you take one, you are depriving no one of the one you took. Are you depriving the developer of being rewarded for their efforts - yes. But you are not by virtue of taking it, preventing another from having that particular one. It is an "invisible" crime, where the only person deprived is the person who invested their time and effort into crafting the product you use. I also believe that some of the software companies contribute to things by charging a large amount for something that each part costs them little. I know from my own experience that I am more likely to "pirate" a $150 product than a 20 dollar one. Particularly for those programs that you use once in a while rather than your constant use ones. From someone who has been on many sides of the piracy warez issue, Quixote42 |
An alternate take
As a noob to this forum I would just like to bring up something no one else has brought up. I think pirating software became a main stream affair due to major software publisher's actions (ex... MS and Netscape fiasco), MS deals to computer manufacturers to sell only MS OSs, overcharged prices for software (ex... $400 for Vista Ultimate), time bombed software that stops working or is crippled past a certain date, software bought w/ lifetime upgrades option (less than 6 mo use-no upgrades, bought by another company that is now extorting more money for their inferior product) (ex... musicmatch jukebox and yahoo). The list of software issues goes on and on. Music: What about the cassette you bought that broke the 1st time you tried to listen to it, or the tape stretched and now sounds warbled, or the record (LP/45) that had scratches from the jacket sleeve when you purchased it. What about the music collection that was stolen from the person that bought it, does that person still own that stolen music? what about buying a CD that installs a root kit that can only be fixed by a full reinstall. How about buying music or software that cannot be returned to the store that it was purchased from. Finding out the CD or software installs programs actually does damage or can give others control of your computer. Virus scanners don't detect root kits, the maker of the root kit gets a slap on the wrist, until the next time it gets caught? To end perception may be part of the problem, frustration is probably as good a reason as I can think of. I did not come to this forum to steel anything. I was looking for Vista drivers for my Utstarcom PPC6700. Yes I purchased both the Vista and 6700. Thanks all flames will be read. B)
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I have visited, downloaded and installed software from warez sites.
But every single program that is installed on my device has been registered(PocketInformant included), and many more that are not installed as well because they either bog down my system or over the years they have become pure junk. Good product development requires time and time is money that's the end of it. Support your developers! =D> I stopped buying from Handango though, got tired of their software download crap especially after they keep 40% of the software sale. I buy from developer website if possible, better for them, better for me. |
sorry.....!
Im guilty.. of downloading software, that should be paid for but can you really afford to keep paying for upgrades why would you pay for the same program twice ? i know its and up grade but if i paid for it once im not paying for the up grade thats just how i feel...http://forum.ppcgeeks.com/images/icons/icon8.gif
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I believe that if warez are popular enough on a program, then it ought to be on the users to compete headon with said program by creating an open source project that will compete with it.
Do this enough times with enough programs and you will see those popular warez featured programs become cheaper, free, or handed off from companies to the open source domain. Food for thought, why rely on 1 developer to work on a program when you can rely on anyone and everyone to have the ability to download and tweak a program with no harm? |
I like it how a lot of people are trying or have tried to rationalize why they don't pay(steal0 software. It's repulsive and sickening, sorry to say. If you don't pay for something you are stealing it. I don't care whether MS didn't add it to their OS or not. Someone worked hard for that product. They can charge whatever price they deem fit.
Don't get me wrong. I've downloaded songs in the past without paying during the napstar days. Now I barley buy or download music since its all crap out there. However, lets just be honest. Call a spade a spade. We are stealing and it is wrong. |
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That'll put a dent in the overpricing of certain software. |
seriously i think piracy does alot of good to then just bad, example i used to download software all the time but decided to stop doing that know i try to buy the software i've downloaded but better and more effient same with music. But i feel in this digital age of digitial download example for a software for my phone cost me 50.00 is stupid over priced, or 300. or even 20.00 just to download a program. Im more luckly to buy something at 5.95, 10.95 or 19.95 for a digital download, now if i order it and requires a box, and cd and instructions, mailing then the price jumps. I think these companys do get what they deserve for being overly greedy, but i understand that people work hard at this and deserve to get paid, but like i said before paying 50.00 for a software that u download were really nothing is exchange is kinda out there. Now if i can't find it for free legally or at a decent price i dont buy it and i wont download it either. And these people lost my business and im sure im not the only person that feels this way.
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On this issue, my stuff is freeware. The code is even written in plain text files when you do the installation. I would still be offended if someone took my stuff and claimed it to be their's. In the same way, if I charged a fair amount for a product that I had poured my time and effort into and then some schmuck decided to warez it instead of supporting my efforts, then I'd be pissed. The stuff I've written so far is small and uses a lot of other peoples help (with their permission and credit given) so I don't charge. When it grows and begins to require more time, I would hope that people are willing to pay a small charge for the use of the software.
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As someone else has said, the rationalization is rampant... and totally wrong. If, in your opinion, the developer is charging too much for a piece of software, then you have a great option: you don't buy it and you don't use it. Basically, a vendor asks you to make a decision: Is it more valuable to you to use my item, or is it more valuable to you to keep the money I'm asking? If it is the former, you buy it. If the latter, you walk away. Until people start believing that stealing that GPS from Best Buy and stealing software is actually the same, those of us who believe intellectual property is, in fact, property , will continue to be disgusted by those who don't.
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